Hanging with Ronnie Lott and Von Miller (for like, 5-minutes)

Me and a blurry but happy Ronnie Lott

When I started this blog back in 2003, it wasn't what it is now. For one thing, only nine people read it. The focus was also very different. I wrote a lot about sports, especially baseball, and I tried to bring a unique analytical spin. This was back before Baseball Prospectus and Football Outsiders started providing really good stats based writing and blew me out of the water completely. After I became a parent the focus of this space changed. I still write about sports, but mostly as it relates to my kids and what I can teach them (or what they teach me) through sports.

Last week was the annual Dad 2.0 Summit, a conference for dad bloggers to network with each other, and to interact with brands. It was also my chance to meet and chat with Super Bowl winning NFL players past and present. The opening key note featured former San Francisco 49ers great and Hall-of-Famer, Ronnie Lott and his son Ryan Nece talking about fatherhood. They both emphasized the importance of vulnerability, and being able to show that you are vulnerable, as key components of not only being a father, but also being a teammate, and a man. Lott explained that he wanted Nece to take his mother's maiden name so that Nece wouldn't grow up carrying the name of an all-time great player. It gave Nece a chance to be himself, and even to turn away from football if he'd wanted, without pressure from others.

Beyond fatherhood, the two gave insight into an NFL locker room. Nece indicated that a lot of "locker room talk" really centers around parenting and personal finance. The numbers behind athletes going broke after retirement are well known, and modern players are trying to avoid doing that. Nece also said that many players talk to each other about where to send kids to school. Lott added that with men for whom the locker room is a workplace, there's little time or space for bawdy conversations. Said Lott, "The thing is, it’s your job. There’s not many jobs where you go talk about of off color things. You’re trying to figure out life."

There was a touching moment when Nece told a story about asking his dad how to cope with failure. "I asked him, 'what did you do when you had a bad game, made the wrong play?' He told me, 'Son, I never made a bad play.'" The larger point was that you learn from failure and you move on. You understand that everyone fails at some point. It's what you learn from it, how you move on to the next play that matters. It's something I've tried to impress on my students in the years that I've been teaching. Nothing succeeds like success, but nothing can teach you to succeed better than trying and failing.

Lott also addressed the issue of kneeling during the National Anthem.

"I salute the flag for a host of reasons. The great thing about #TakeAKnee, though, is the courage to do something to hopefully make the world better." @RonnieLottHOF #RealStrength #Dad2Summit

— Dad 2.0 Summit (@dad2summit) February 2, 2018

For me there's always some trepidation in meeting people you looked up to as a child. I loved Ronnie Lott when he was with the 49ers. I was five-years-old when Lott and the 49ers won their first Super Bowl. This was back before 24-hour sports networks (we didn't have cable) were pervasive. It was before social media. All you really knew about athletes was what they said in post-game interviews. So there's always a fear that they'll end up being something other than what you hope for. Brent Jones and Gary Plummer are staunch republicans. Even Jerry Rice threw out a #MAGA tweet during the election. So I was worried about what Lott would say. He was everything I'd hoped for. He made little five-year-old Tito beam with joy.

At previous Dad 2.0 conferences NFL stars Peanut Tillman and Michael Strahan were whisked away fairly quickly. Lott and Nece walked out through the ball room, stopping to chat with people. I didn't want to take up too much of Lott's time, but I had to say hello. I expected a quick handshake and greeting. He surprised me by stopping and seeming genuinely interested in my question, what was it like coming in as a class with Carlton Williamson and Eric Wright? "It was great, because we all genuinely liked each other. We had a special bond." I asked him about a story I'd read about him and Williamson passing off receivers and switching coverages without discussing it with the coaching staff. He didn't seem to recall it, but said it probably happened. I wanted to ask him about the psychology of switching positions, something many great athletes hesitate to do, but his handlers wanted him to get moving.

(More after this enormous embedded photo)

Breaking it down to a skeptical looking @vonmiller Very cool brief convo on working with brands, expressing personality, hits on Cam, and the future of FA QBs. Thanks Von, @bestbuy and @dad2summit

A post shared by An Interdisciplinary Life (@aninterdisciplinarylife) on Feb 2, 2018 at 4:25pm PST

 This year I was also lucky enough to be included in a chance to meet Super Bowl MVP Von Miller, thanks to Best Buy. It was clear from the ticket that we wouldn't have much time with him and I had no idea what the format would be. I wracked my brain for something I could ask that might be even slightly original. He'd already answered every conceivable sports question. I wasn't a big enough Broncos fan to know any cool trivia. ESPN had already scooped me on the chicken farming angle. Then I remembered his ads. He always comes across as a kind of a nerd, from his dancing to his glasses. I decided to ask him how much input he gets when doing a commercial. How much does he get to guide the look and feel of how he's presented?



His answer was predictable. It was the kind of answer you get form a savvy, polished media personality. "I choose my endorsements carefully and work with brands that already understand who I am and what I'm about. So I don't need to control the process that much. I trust the people I have around me." It was a solid answer, even if it wasn't eye opening. We also took a moment to reminisce about his two strip-sacks of Cam Newton in the Super Bowl. As I was finishing my time I had to ask him his thoughts on free agent quarterback Kurt Cousins. "Oh he's coming! He is coming!" Miller exclaimed.

So there you have it. My NFL reporting from Dad 2.0 uncovered that Von Miller is all in on Kurt Cousins, geek is chic, and vulnerability is masculinity. Take care, y'all.

Why Go to NFL Training Camp?

It has almost never occurred to me to attend an NFL training camp practice. I've been a 49er fan for as long as I can remember. I really like football. I've been the commissioner of the same fantasy football league for 14 years. I like going to games. I spend most Sundays watching football. Still, the idea of going out to a practice facility that isn't really designed to accommodate crowds to sit in the heat and pay $7 for water has never appealed to me. I mean, what's the point of watching practice? Sounds boring and inconvenient right?

That's what I thought too. So when the 49ers sent out tweets, emails, and Facebook invites to their open practice this summer my answer was, "Yeah right. Never." Not three hours later my friend Daniel sent me a text:

"I just won tickets to 49ers practice on Saturday, want to go?"

I think I took all of thirty seconds to think about it. "Yes!" I replied. I did still wonder if it was going to be fun. I didn't even know where it was.  After finding out it wasn't in Napa (that's where the Raiders practice, duh) I was happy to hear it was at Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara and not at the practice facility. I was even happier to read that the food would be free.

Seriously, bro. Free food.

OK, let's go.

Daniel is awesome and suggested I bring Buddy with us. I was excited to see a new stadium, and Buddy had been wanting to go to an NFL game. I can't afford that right now, so this was good chance to get him an NFL experience on the cheap, and for a duration (it was a 4 hour event) that he can handle.

The only problem we encountered is that the parking and traffic flow around the stadium were terrible. They had traffic cops out to help, but it seem like a planning issue that just wasn't addressed well. Other than that, it was actually pretty cool.

Why should you consider attending an NFL training camp practice? Read on for my unsorted, semi-chronological list.

1. It's not crowded if it's at the stadium:

YMMV but it's unlikely 50,000 people are going to show up for practice. The concourse isn't crowded, there are plenty of bathrooms, there's shade. Also, the Kid Zone games don't have long lines.

2. Free Food:

Maybe only terrible teams like the 49ers are doing this, but it was very cool. And it wasn't just the cheapo/terrible stuff. The sausages were legit. They also had nachos, pizza, soft drinks, bottled water and a bunch more available. The line moved quickly. You could buy beer/wine (of course wine, it's the 49ers) for $14 if you wanted.

3. Open Seating:

Again, a more popular or recently successful team may have their event fill up, not so in Santa Clara. We watched part of practice from seats we could certainly never afford. Buddy liked watching the 11-on-11 drills from up close. It was almost like watching a game. If you're in my tax bracket this is as close as you're likely to get. You get a good sense of the speed and power of the players when you're this close. Also, dude, look how cushy these chairs are.

4. Nerding out:

I actually enjoyed watching the punt coverage and 1:1 passing drills more than I thought I would. I was reminded that I like watching practice because you can get a sense of how each part of a play is broken down into smaller group or individual responsibilities. It's also great because you can really see differences in technique by each player. They run through the same drill over and over, which allows you to suss out what players do well, and what they're working on. If you're football nerd there's a lot to see.

5. There are chances to get closer:

A lot of fans were able to go down on the field to watch the end of practice. I'm not sure how other people got their passes, but we got ours because my friend complained about the parking situation on Twitter. Not sure why that worked, but his guess was, "It could be because I have a verified account." By hook or by crook, we ended up down on the field during the two-minute drill. That was very cool. The offense was driving towards us and viewing everything from that vantage point allowed us to get a sense for the size and speed of the players. At one point Jeremy Kerley ran an out-route, made a great catch, and his momentum took him right into our knot of spectators. A few plays later Brian Hoyer threw a touchdown while standing just a few yards away from us.

6. They're good to kids:

For this event kids under six got in free. The adult fans were happy to let Buddy stand in front of them, right at the rope that cordoned off our viewing area, so he could see. The security guards held their gruff security guard demeanor with the adults, but one of them was genuinely playful and kind to Buddy. He even made it on the Jumbotron again, making it his fourth time in four different stadiums. But the highlight was the players, who were polite at worst, and jubilantly interactive at their best. Wide receivers Marquise Goodwin and Jeremey Kerley were very accommodating to fan requests and stopped to chat with Buddy briefly while signing his jersey. Punter, Brad Pinion chuckled when I told him he was my favorite player. He doesn't know about my abiding love for kickers and special teamers. Most of the players were able to see through the throng of adults shoving hats and posters at them, picking out the kids and going to them first.

Buddy with the Niners top 3 WRs: Garcon, Kerley and Goodwin

Buddy being able to meet players and get autographs was a special moment for me too. When I was five-years-old my mom took me to some 49ers banquet she had been invited to by a co-worker. I have no idea who I met that night, but I know they were players, and they were really nice to me. I specifically remember one spending a long time playing with my stuffed bunny with me. I left with a bunch of signed swag, all of which was lost to time over various moves and the fact that my mom didn't value it and I was little. Still, I was hooked on the Niners from then on.

So if you've ever thought about going to an NFL training camp I suggest looking to see if your team is doing an event day. That's likely going to be the best organized day. If you don't live near your team, the practice environment can be fun. I wasn't excited about the idea of attending training camp, but I gave it a shot, and it was fun for everyone. I definitely recommend a trip for football fans who may not have considered it.

And Take Al Davis With You.

So A guy named Ed Roski is planning to build a football stadium in LA. He's planning this even though he does not own an NFL team. He's planning this even though his prospects of owning an NFL team are slim. Good for him. Now let's hope he can get the Raiders to move back to LA.

That's right boys and girls Sir Rantalot's prayers may be answered. There is now a chance, however slim, that our fine community may be rid of the Raiders once and for all. And good riddance. After all who can tell me that the Raiders return has been anything but a nightmare? Massive debt to the county, an ugly ugly remodeling job to the stadium, black outs, PSLs, high ticket prices, six straight seasons of 11 losses or more, black outs, Darrell Russell, this abomination that I still have sort of blocked out of my memory, black outs, and the list goes on. And we still haven't mentioned drunk violent Raider fans.

The Raiders second stint in Oakland had been a disaster for everyone involved. Al has been looking for a way out since he signed the lease. If he bolts back to LA the rest of us can get back to real double headers on Sundays and not being afraid of getting stabbed for wearing colors other than black. I know Al is unlikely to sell and Roski wants a majority stake in a team before he breaks ground but this may be the time. Al's health is failing and I'm sure he could work out a gradual transfer of power that would be completed upon his death. After all it can't be long before Darth Raider throws old Emperor Alpatine down the shaft right? Best of all if Al leaves then maybe, just maybe, we can get a 35,000 seat baseball only stadium that will keep the A's in town and prevent Al from ever coming back.

So here's to all the decent people of the east bay getting together to find out what we can do to make this thing happen. Sometime dreams really can come true.

PS: I've got things to say about Rush, Crabtree, and the other recent sports happenings but I'm still on vacation so it'll have to wait for another day. G'night y'all.

LeGarrette Blount Update

It looks like there may be some forgiveness for LeGarrette Blount. It's interesting to see that one of the people Blount's been consulting with is Kermit Washington who I mentioned in my original post.

Checking in on Crabtree

Crabtree II

The question I haven’t seen answered in all the Michael Crabtree analysis is this, how much more money will he have to get to make this hold out worth it? If you examine it in terms of simple math rather than leagalese contract math (discounting various bonus triggers that change what is paid when) it goes like this: the contract on the table is reported as $20M/5years. That breaks down to an average of $4M/year. For some antiquated reason NFL players are given game checks 16 times over the course of the season. Each of Crabtree’s game checks should be ~$250,000. Right now the 49ers are pro-rating their offer so that every time Crabtree misses a game the offer is reduced by ~$250,000. So far he has “lost” ~$750 ,000. If you’re not yet sick to your stomach about a guy turning up his nose at that kind of money read on.

Crabtree has threatened to hold out the entire year and re-renter the draft next year. This plan seems to be based on the fact that he thinks he will be picked higher than he was this year and thus get more money. It is also possible that he believes that the amount of money available next year will get him a better deal. Again, how much more money will he need to get to make it worthwhile? Well for one he’d have to make up for sitting out this year. Essentially he’d have to make six years worth of salary in five years giving us a break even point of $24M ($4M/year x 6 years). But that’s not all.

According to the current collective bargaining agreement (CBA) players can become free agents after five years of service time. That’s when big time players really cash in. Forget for a moment that we don’t know if Crabtree is Randy Moss or Carlos Rogers, he believes he’s a big time player which means whatever deal he gets will have to make up for the fact that he’s now delaying free agency and his big payday by another year. If you look at just the average of the top five cap numbers for wide receivers in 2008 ($9.74M) it means Crabtree would have a new break even number of $34M. If you consider the fact that salaries rise over time it's not crazy to think that number will be higher five years from next year so lets say, accounting for 6 years of salary inflation, he needs $40M to break even. Still this number is only what he would need to make up for missing this year. This is the “the plan didn’t really work and it’s kind of a wash” number. For this hold out to be considered a success he’d have to make a lot more than this.

Now, ready for what he’s allegedly asking? $40 million. That’s right, the guy picked tenth wants $40M. That’s about $2M more than the guy picked seventh, who plays the same position, got. But remember, Crabtree’s whole rationale for this hold out is that he should have been picked fifth.

Beyond the money though is another issue. How good can Crabtree be expected to be? The final answer is we have no way of knowing, but that answer’s no fun to analyze. Instead lets look at other players who have missed entire years. The two that spring to mind for me are Maurice Clarett and Mike Williams. If you don’t remember Mo C. he was a running back at Ohio State who had a great freshman year. He was so good that year he decided he should challenge the NFL rule that forces players to wait three years after high school to apply for the draft. When Clarett won a temporary injunction against the NFL Williams decided it would be a good idea to declare for the draft as well. In the end the NFL rule was upheld (thank you judge Sotamayor) and both players missed the entire 2004 season. In 2005 Williams was taken 10th overall and Clarett was taken 101st. Clarett, who turned down $413,000 in guaranteed money in favor of an incentive laden deal with no guarantees, didn’t make it through training camp and never played in the NFL. Williams ended his rookie year with 29 receptions and 1 touchdown. Not exactly what one looks for in the number 10 overall pick. The next year Williams had just 8 catches and 1 touchdown. In 2007 Williams split time between the Raiders and the Titans recording 7 receptions and 0 touchdowns. He has not played a down since then.

What does this mean for Michael Crabtree? Possibly nothing. Andre Smith, this year’s number six pick was the last player left holding out other than Crabtree. Smith finally reported to camp and was immediately lost for the year with a broken foot the next day. Smith was following the path laid out by 2002 number 6 overall pick Ryan Sims who held out for weeks and then was injured and lost for the year a couple weeks after reporting.

Beyond that sports landscape is littered with guys who thought they could do better. Matt Harrington was drafted by MLB teams four years in a row. He was initially a first rounder but found the offer of a paltry $4.9M to be too little. He played junior college ball, then independent ball and got a little worse every year. Now he works installing tires at Costco. The history of players who turn up their noses at not enough millions and skip a year is littered with stories of failure. In fact the only person I can think of who’s at least made a ton of money after sitting out is J.D. Drew and he at least played a year of high level indie ball while he was off denying the Phillies. But there is no high minor league for football. Crabtree gave up his eligibility for the closest thing to that when he left college. Besides that Crabtree has more to lose in terms of his rookie deal by playing this season in Canada or the UFL than by sitting out. The risk of injury is too great and of he doesn’t excel his stock will drop. Instead he’ll hope that his college resume will hold up through next April. That hope is all he’ll have since he won’t be allowed to work out for other teams before the draft. Here’s hoping the Niners will be in position to draft him again. And again, and again, and again.

Instant Reaction

I do not support LaGarrette Blount's actions. I do think we need to try to understand what he did.

For those of you not following this story Blount is a running back for the University of Oregon football team. After a game last night Blount punched an opposing player in the face. The opposing player, Boise State's Byron Hout, sought out Blount immediately after the game and taunted him. The taunt may have been a reaction to Blount's comments to the media before the game to the effect of Oregon owing Boise an "ass whuppin" to avenge the Ducks loss to the Broncos in Oregon last year. I can't condone players punching each other after a game. I do think this kid Blount is getting a bad rap.

I have long contended that this idea that words should never lead to violence is, like communism, a nice idea that has no real practical basis in reality. The fact is you can't just go around saying whatever you want to whoever you want and not be ready to accept whatever reaction you get. Now, if you do something reasonable like honk at someone who darts out in front of your car it is fair to expect they won't smash in your windshield with a crowbar. However, if you roll down your window and yell "Get your stupid ass out the street." I don't see how you can expect to not have your windshield smashed in with a crowbar. Polite society is for polite people. If you can't be polite I hardly see how you can complain if someone answers your rudeness with even greater rudeness.

Apply this to the end of a game. If you win you should let the fact that you won be all the smack you need to run out there. However if at the end of a tough emotional game you feel compelled to seek a guy out, tap him on the shoulder and rub it in his face you should expect to get punched in the face. If you want to live in a world where you do not ever get punched in the face don't go around taunting angry men who just lost a contest of strength and will. If you want to live in a world where you can taunt large angry men without any repercussion move to Candyland. Point: Hout needs to accept some responsibility for his actions and the result.

Some ESPN analysts have referred to the incident as a sucker punch. I don't think this is a fair characterization. If Hout had stood and faced Blount after his comment he would have seen the punch coming. Instead he puts on a shit eating grin and turns to look for props from his boys. Dude, if you're going to talk shit keep your wits about you. In the immortal words of Chris Tucker, "You got knocked the fuck out!" I also think it's telling that Hout's teammates didn't rush to his defense. Maybe the guys' just a dick.

Let me emphasize I am not behind hauling off and punching people. I don't think it's the right thing to do. I just think we shouldn't act so shocked when it happens. Colin Cowherd said something on his show today that stood out for me. He said, "It's not how you act that's important, it's how you react." This is true. Hout is a dumb ass for what he did. Blount could have shown tremendous character and restraint by shining Hout on. That would be the kind of thing we look up to as a society. But Blount isn't that guy. I don't think he should be vilified for it. I'm not that guy. Ask Kermit Washington what can happen in a bad instant. Washington punched Rudy Tomjonovich and his life changed forever. Blount is getting hammered for something that happened in the heat of the moment. We accept temporary insanity as a basis for murder defense. We coach temporary insanity in football players so we can be entertained. But when the insanity carries over by a few minutes we want to act like we're outraged.

Now Blount has been suspended for the rest of the year. I'm fine with that. Just like I was fine with the Mike Vick suspension. Blount needed some sort of punishment. I think a year is a little harsh but he did something wrong and he needs to accept the consequences of his action. I don't think we need to keep hammering on him after this. I don't think we should write him off as a person or a player based on this one incident. It could well be that he's a good person who did a bad thing. We need to look at ourselves and ask if our expectations are really in line with reality. Is it really reasonable to expect that these guys will just turn it off as soon as the whistle blows? Is it really reasonable to expect that we should all have carte blanche to say whatever, whenever, to whomever and expect that it will never draw an unfavorable reaction?

Plax

"Yeah Hi, I'd like to hire that guy from "The Bodyguard." No not Kevin Costner, the guy, the bodyguard guy. Never mind."

So Plaxico Burress is going to prison. ESPN is reporting that Burress agreed to a plea that will send him away for two years. For those who have not been following the story Burress was arrested last season after accidentally shooting himself in the leg in a New York night club when a gun stuck in the waistband of his sweatpants slipped out and fired.

According to the ESPN.com article Burress's lawyer thinks his client was unfairly targeted because of his celebrity status. There are some aspects of the case that back that up. For example no one else involved in the incident was indicted even though there is evidence to suggest a fairly wide ranging attempt to cover up what happened. Plax's gun was not registered in New York or New Jersey. The security guard at the club did not confiscate the weapon at the scene to turn over to police. Instead he gave it to Giants linebacker Antonio Pierce (removing evidence) who then drove then gun to his own home (transporting an unlicensed weapon across state lines) then to Burress's home (and again). The staff at the hospital did not report the shooting to police which they are compelled to do in many states. Still, even though multiple people were involved in actions that point towards an attempt to shield Burress from prosecution only Burress is being held accountable.

That said, the lawyer's comments in regard to the severity of Burress's punishment are boarder line hysterical. here's a sampling from the ESPN.com article:

"This was not an intentional criminal act," Brafman said. "In my judgment, a two-year prison sentence is a very severe punishment."

"Brafman called the case "a perfect example about how bad judgment can have very serious consequences," and said Burress was treated more harshly because he is a celebrity."

"If Plaxico Burress were not a high-profile individual, there never would be a case," he said. "If he were just John Q Public he could have walked out of the club and he never would have been arrested."

Seriously? Lets discuss this further.

"This was not an intentional criminal act?" Really? So tucking an unlicensed handgun into the waistband of his sweatpants and going out to a night club was...an accident? "Oops, am I still carrying a concealed weapon without a permit? Silly me."

"If he were just John Q Public he could have walked out of the club and he never would have been arrested." Really? So if I carry a gun into a public venue, shoot myself and have the bullet nearly hit the security guard standing nearby I'll just get off without any kind of consequences? Cool. I'm thinking that what will really happen if J.Q. Public does this same thing is that the guard, realizing he's OK and that I almost Pacman Jonesed him will proceed to beat me within an inch of my life, then he'll call the cops, then I'll sit in jail until my trial because I can't come up with the bail, then I'll go to jail for whatever the maximum sentence is. I'm thinking people, even "normal" people, don't just get away with this kind of "unintentional criminal act."

So, what do we learn from this? I really don't know. I hope people learn that they should not carry guns around. Especially in the waistband of their sweatpants. I can't even keep my phone in an elastic waistband how did this guy think a gun was going to stay? Also, rich people, use your money to hire people to do things for you. If you're worried about security hire a body guard who is authorized to carry a weapon. If you like to drink call a cab, or a limo, or tour bus but don't get in your car and start driving around killing people. It looks like the Leonard Little days are over. If you are too stupid to remember these simple things hire someone to remember them for you. But for gawdsake stop doing this stupid shit.

Cribbs Notes

Image created by dawgpounddaily.com, hosted on photobucket

So Joshua Cribbs wants a new deal with four years left on his current contract. He says he wants Devin Hester money. Some people agree with him. Some people are Sir Rantalot. And then there's bam28226. As we saw in the Mike Vick debate post the people who get the most passionate about these arguments also have the least to say. So what's the point of these posts? To show how clever Sir Rantalot is? Not really. It's more to show that even when you show people the rationale behind the debate they still refuse to see anything other than what they want to see. It doesn't matter if it's health care or football ignorance rules the roost.

Again, do not debate if you don't have anything of substance to say.

Bertissimo 10:23am

Wah! Wah! Wah! What a baby.

You signed a six year deal, honor it. The only way the team isn't honoring the deal like Cribbs claims is if they don't pay him. If you want to renegotiate this soon you should have signed a two year deal. You sir are no D. Hester.

Oh, and if you can't live off 6 mil for the rest of your life you're doing something wrong. Cribbs makes in one year what I make in 10. My family is doing fine. Learn to budget dummy.

--Oh but he's a triple threat. He's a return man, a WR, a QB, a RB and he sells hot dogs during half time.--

Bertissimo 10:35am

Career

REC YDS AVG LNG TD
16 / 153 / 9.6 / 18 / 1

CAR YDS AVG LNG TD
40 / 239 / 6.0 / 27 / 1

This guy has 16 career receptions and 40 carries. He's not exactly Slash Stewart. He's not even Troy Brown. He's not underpaid, he's getting what he's worth.

--Now it gets fun--

bam68226 10:36am

bertissimo You are a idiot to think hester is better then cribbs. hester avg 20 yrds a return in his career cribbs 28, and as i recall hester lost his return job bc he wasnt preforming for the last 8 games. you dont know nothing.

--A guy who used the word "preforming" just called me an idiot. He also deleted a post where he said I was aliar and there's no way I make $1M/year.--

Bertissimo 10:48am

Bam,

You moron, Hester also has 71 career receptions including 51 last year. He's WAY more valuable than Cribbs. Oh, and if needed he's a better defender than Cribbs. At least you cleaned up your bad math though so kudos on that. Dummy.

bam68226 10:52am

bert you are dumb really cribbs playd QB, RB, WR, defense of special teams, and returner. he buy far is way more versitile then hester. and comin from a hurricane fan hester is whack so hope of his D. you dummy. its hard to carry a team on your back like he did never getting time to catch his breath, but i always say hester on his bench cept when recievin

--"but i always say hester on his bench cept when recievin" Huh?--

bam68226 10:57am

oh and bert yea i think it was daniel manning who took over kick returns at the end of the bears season, #### im a browns fan and i know more bout any team then you do

Bertissimo 11:03am

Bam,

Who cares about Daniel Manning? Considering your spelling and grammar you should chill with insulting people's intelligence. You really are the worst kind of ignorant.

--I usually try to stay off of mentioning people's spelling and grammar in chats because it online but this guy called me stupid one too many times.--

bam68226 11:05am

your right who cares bout him but guess what he was doing his job over hesters thats why hester lost it and right now idc bout my spelling and grammer it isnt school, im heated right now bc your an ignorant piece of S***

Bertissimo 11:06am

The hold out strategy worked in the past but I think teams are over it by this point. It seems that in the past players held out if they had a year left on their deal and they wanted to stay where they were. But this new trend of players wanting to renegotiate with two or more years left on their contracts is terrible. If you want to renegotiate that soon sign shorter deals.

bam68226 11:07am

just bc you cant be famous and make good money like these people and work as hard as hard as they do. its not just the 16 games for his 6 million hes making. its all year round the effort they put outside the field and having talkd to cribbs seen cribbs he is one of the hardest working players you will ever see, bert

--He just kind of threw me in there at the end. Why?--

bertissimo 11:09am

Bam,

You're comparing a returner to a position player you yutz. Who cares if Hester lost his return job? He's a real full time player now, not a gimmick. You're whole argument is based on Hester's primary value being a returner. It's like comparing you to someone with a clue, it's two totally different things.

rgs_13 11:10am

return guys and average WRs are a dime a dozen

Bertissimo 11:10am

"return guys and average WRs are a dime a dozen "

Exactly.

bam68226 11:10am

oh bert your real funny cribbs doesnt have aset spot when he plays the whole damn game, have you watched football before, i mean come on he is every where on the field

bearsclone 11:12am

"If you want to renegotiate that soon sign shorter deals."

The problem is that as a drafted rookie, your rights are controlled by one team, and they can largely dictate terms. If you are a top pick, you have the leverage, because no team wants the PR nightmare of being bad AND having their top pick not sign-- it makes the fans angry and gives them no hope for the future.

If you are outside of that top 15, you have a greatly diminished amount of leverage. A team says "sign this six year deal" and you either sign it or sit out a year and come back a year older, not playing any football for a year, and suddenly you're a 4th round pick or go undrafted.

If you sign a veteran deal (that is, you get a nice fat contract extension with a signing bonus, that you didn't NEED to sign) then I agree. I hate the fact that some one will sign a huge deal that makes them the most highly paid person at their position ever, and then in year four or five of that eight year deal, they want a new one.

Bertissimo 11:14am

"The problem is that as a drafted rookie, your rights are controlled by one team"

He's not on his rookie deal. He signed an extension in 2007 before his 3rd year.

bearsclone 11:16am

"He's not on his rookie deal. He signed an extension in 2007 before his 3rd year."

If that's the case then I can see where people would have a problem with it.

--Thanks bearsclone. Now that's a friendly debate.--

bam68226

bert, he is a KR,PR,QB,RB,WR, special teams defense, and this year soon to be a CB. please tell me hester does all that for his 40 mil contract and 15 mil guranteed. thats right cribbs does it all for 6 mil point in case deserves a raise

--OK, bam's coming around. He said something half way cogent and didn't call me an idiot. Cool. At this point I get behind in a couple responses because I had to go and do some actual work at work. I thin kyou can still foloow the thread though.--

Bertissimo 11:19am

Bam,

Since I don't live in Ohidaho I don't get to see many Browns games. We have our own cruddy teams to watch here. So I'm very familiar with the players that play really well on losing teams around here. I just don't have the time to follow every terrible team in the league to see who's doing just enough to not really matter. It's great that you love Cribbs so much. Good for you.

bam68226 11:21am

Bert i live 3.5 hrs away from cleveland and i went to 7 out of 8 games one missd bc i had a college baseball game, and i bet your team you like is garb. im not sayn the browns are the best in the league we have problems and it was signing mangini as are coach

bam68226 11:22am

by the way its ohio, and i bet i went to more games last year then you did your entire life

OhioDevil 11:23am

Bam are you serious? Do you even watch the Browns play? Cribbs is on the field for maybe 10-15 plays a game, he does not play QB or RB. Every time he lines up back there he ran the ball for 2yds up the middle. The guy is a great cover guy on special teams and a great return guy, but teams kicked away from him last season negating his effectiveness. There is no way a Special Teamer can demand a new deal, just because the Bears were stupid and paid Hester does not open the door for Cribbs. If Cribbs wins a spot as a Safety or Corner, then yes...give him a raise.

Bertissimo 11:26

Yeah, he's a great QB. He's 1 for 5 for 8yds and a whopping 39.6 rating. Hes got 8 total TDs in his 4 year career.

Hester has 17 TDs in 3 years.

bam68226 11:29

bc they kickd the ball to hester, they were afraid of cribbs. and damn i wish i could have the fluke year that hester had to he had 1 good year cribbs has been increasing as his years go on

--Yeah. That year the Bears went to the Super Bowl no one was afraid of Hester. Right.--

Bertissimo 11:30am

Bam,

I already said I don't care about how many games I've watched or been to or seen and I've already said the teams in my area are terrible. Who cares how many games you go to each year? You're still a dummy. You probably should know more if you invest so much time into it.

And it's Ohidaho because I said it's Ohidaho.

bam68226 11:32am

haha well your a #### to say its that where you from north dakota where there are more cows then people haha

--????--

bam68226 11:34am

o and by the way i dont invest my time in it your the one coming up with all the stats, mine are from my head i dont have the time i have a life, sorry i cant sit on a comp all day and look at stats like you

--This from the guy who's been matching me comment for comment all morning. I'll never understand the people who feel like it's a conversational advantage to just spout whatever it is they half remember based on their hazy impressions of events rather than taking ten seconds to look it up. People, research and verification are good things!--

Bertissimo 11:35am

"haha well your a #### to say its that where you from north dakota"

Dude, I work with languages for a living but I have to say I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I get that you think I'm from ND but that's about it. Are you drunk?

bam68226 11:40

congradulations BERT you work with languages you want a present. i dont give a you know what where you work, your the one that seems to know everything but you still cant give a valid reason, why he doesnt deserve his money

this is to an earlier statement you had o and by the way i dont invest my time in it your the one coming up with all the stats, mine are from my head i dont have the time i have a life, sorry i cant sit on a comp all day and look at stats like you

--But he had time to repeat that comment about not knowing anything.--

Bertissimo 11:44am

Bam,

Looking up stats takes two minutes, far less time than driving from Saskatoon to Cleveland to spend 5 hours at the game then driving home. But you have a life right? And you do have time to spend all day on the computer, you've been chatting it up with me for over an hour. But hey, we know math isn't your strong suit. Neither is English. You're kind of the Josh Cribbs of this discussion, you're all over the place but you don't really contribute to any wins.

thirdfloor81 11:44am

2 receptions for 18 yards and 1 touchdown in 2008... BOO HOO CRIBBS!

bam68226 11:45am

thirdfloor81 hey funny how donte stallworth, kellen winslow, braylon edwards, syndric steptoe, steve heiden are all in front of him of course he isnt goin to get many receptions

--Wait, haven't you been basing your argument on how great a receiver he is? If he's so great why are there five guys ahead of him on the depth chart?--

bam68226 11:48am

bert i havent been on a comp in a week prolly and since your so ignorant how couldnt i stay on and chat with you. bc you think your the man but your cases have all been whack just like you

--Heh. I'm compelling.--

oronatx 11:49am

Bertissmo,

Thats great. You summed this dude up best

"You're kind of the Josh Cribbs of this discussion, you're all over the place but you don't really contribute to any wins"

lmao

--Heh. I have fan.--

Bertissimo 11:51am

Bam, you make no sense pal. What you did last week doesn't matter. It's now that counts. And yes. I am the man.

bam68226 11:53am

bert you are a tool, not the man your the person at work that gets annoying and people tell to shut up bc thats all you been is a pest, that has no knowledge of sports

--Now it's just getting silly. But I'm OK with that.--

Bertissimo 11:57am

Bam, I clearly know way more than you and with less effort. I rule. People at work love me because I'm fun and I'm good at what I do. Man=Me.

bam68226 11:57am

bert normally the people that say that dont have friends, your a no one and its said to see that, but i hope your right in that you do have friends but the way you have been doesnt show any promise just like hesters career no promise hes LAZY

Bertissimo 11:59

Bam, I didn't bring it up. You did.

--Then there was some name calling and a discussion of the 49ers. I went to work for a couple hours and returned to this:--

Irishogs 1:51pm

GIVE THE MAN HIS MONEY!!!! He is our most dependable offensive player. He always plays hard and has done everything asked of him from being a kick returner, to a wide receiver, to running the wildcat, and apparently now playing cornerback. I'm starting to think Mangini is on a mission to destroy the Browns. Consistently, Cribbs makes the plays and catches that Braylon usually drops.

Mr. Lerner - GIVE THE MAN HIS MONEY!!!

Bertissimo 1:59pm

"He is our most dependable offensive player."

He scored 3 TDs last year. He doesn't consistently make catches Edwards can't, he only had 2 catches last season and only 16 in 4 years. If he's the best on the team the team is in big trouble.

Irishogs 2:03pm

Bertissimo:

I'm saying he shows up every game, and he plays every down. Maybe he only had 3 TDs last year, but he wasn't the main guy either. Compare him to the main guys (Winslow, Edwards, Stallworth) and talk to me about efficiency. I put Stallworth in that group because he was supposed to be important to our offense. Although, he was ridiculously underused which isn't entirely his fault.

I'm not saying he is our most talented receiver. I'm saying that he is our most consistent and dependable player, and if he outplays and outperforms the main guys (despite fewer attempts) he should be paid at their level.

--Well said. Next is a response to a few Cribbs apologists.--

Bertissimo 2:36pm

"if he outplays and outperforms the main guys (despite fewer attempts) he should be paid at their level"

--Maybe. But he hasn't done it yet.

"HE PLAYS MORE THAN 1 POSITION"

--And he doesn't play any of them other than KR/PR at an elite level. His best skill position seems to be RB. If he was an elite RB he'd be starting there.

"This isn't him crying over his contract after the 1st or 2nd year"

--Yes it is. This is now the third year of this deal.

"he's a better WR (as of right now)" (than Hester)

--No he's not. He had 2 catches last year Hester had 51.

If you want to look at versatility and playing multiple positions compare Cribbs as a QB and Ronnie Brown (the man who put the wildcat on the map last year).

Cribbs for his career is 1 for 5 for 8 yds and 0 TD. Brown is 2 for 4 for 41 yds and 1 TD. But Brown also rushed for 916 yds and had 16 receptions and 10 total TDs last year. Cribbs had 2 catches 167 yds rushing and 3 total TDs.

Cribbs is not the offensive dynamo some people think he is.

How about Cribbs compared to LT?

Remember Cribbs: 1 for 5, 8 yds, 0 TD.

LT: 8 for 11, 143 yds, 7 TDs

Plus LT contributes way more to the offense. Cribbs has made himself slightly more valuable than as just a good return man. That's how you keep your job, but not enough to make demands with 4 years left on your deal.

FEEZJAMES 2:45pm

BERTISSIMO look, when he gets the opportunities he's not gonna disappoint, I don't agree with the Hester comment either, but understand he was a situational player last year whereas Hester was already put into the system. but since you took one of my quotes (not mad at ya 4 that) you seem to leave the most important one out. WHO LED THE BROWNS IN ALL-PURPOSE YARDS LAST YEAR. and last time i checked All-purpose yards DOES determine who your top 2 (if not 3) best yard producers are, therefore MAKING THEM 1 OF YOUR BEST PLAYERS. Like it or not people, he deserves it and find a better reason other than comparing his bankroll to yours why he doesn't deserve it. Then It'll be a REAL debate here.

FEEZJAMES 2:48pm

ok BERTISSIMO you're sounding real asinine with that one. comparing Cribbs to LT is comparing Elway to Plummer or Cutler, U CAN'T COMPARE APPLES AND ORANGES DUDE, come more sensible than that

Bertissimo 3:03pm

"WHO LED THE BROWNS IN ALL-PURPOSE YARDS LAST YEAR. and last time i checked All-purpose yards DOES determine who your top 2 (if not 3) best yard producers are, therefore MAKING THEM 1 OF YOUR BEST PLAYERS."

I disagree. First off Cribbs wasn't even in the top ten in all purpose yards in the NFL last year. Some of the guys who beat him out were Steve Breaston, Eddie Royal, Johnnie Lee-Higgins and Josh Wilson. These guys are not among the best players on their teams. These are not the guys who make their teams "go." Should Breaston ask for a new deal to put him on par with Larry Fitzgerald? Breaston had more yards.

"Cribbs to LT is comparing Elway to Plummer or Cutler, U CAN'T COMPARE APPLES AND ORANGES DUDE,"

Exactly, but it seems his agent and people in this discussion are saying he's as valuable as other guys with big money deals who do more than one thing. He's not. He's a good KR/PR and below average at everything else. He needs to compare himself to other KR/PR not guys who actually start at a skill position.

Oh and he's asking for a raise after ranking 12th n KR and 18th in PR yards. Outside the top ten in his specialty.

FEEZJAMES 3:17pm

well BERTISSIMO i don't know where you've been but everybody in Phoenix (recent visit) said despite what Fitz has done, they wouldn't have gotten there without Steve Breaston who they refer to as their 'X-Factor'. So that's null and void. Eddie Royal will be Denver's #2 receiver, don't know those other guys but I thought my ? was WHO LED THE BROWNS in all-purpose yards, NOT THE NFL. which validates point #3 (Breaston and Royal the other 2) anything else?

Bertissimo 3:22pm

FEEZ,

My point is that all purpose yards is a misleading stat. It doesn't always point to your best players. You have a good point about Royal, I forgot about him. Breaston did very well, but he's not an elite player at this point. You can get other guys to do what he does.

Teams also wouldn't make it through the year, through the playoffs, to the Super Bowl without kickers. Kickers often lead their teams in points but very few people think kickers should be given huge contracts. Cribbs is a nice player, but he's not great

Players with more impact and less money than Cribbs who have not issued a press release:

Lance Moore

Vincent Jackson

Johnnie Lee Higgins

Steve Breaston

Brandon Marshall

The bottom line is that guys like Cribbs are like utility baseball players. The guy who starts at six different positions in a season usually doesn't do it because he's such a great player. These guys learn to play several positions because that's how they keep a roster spot. If they were good enough to play one position and stay in the line up they would do it. Cribbs doesn't play WR/RB/QB/DB because he's a great player. He does it because he's not good enough at any of those positions to play any of them full time. In short he's a slash guy because he's not good enough to do anything else. Hopefully he, and myopic Browns fans, will figure that out.

I'm a Bad Fan

I'm a bad fan. At least that's what I gather based the fact that I don't want my team to win. I want them to lose. I want them to lose enough to end up with a top ten draft pick, but not a top five draft pick. I'll tell you why.

Recently 49ers first round draft pick Michael Crabtree's "advisor" (cousin) has stated that is willing to hold out the entire year rather than take the slotted money being offered by the 49ers. This comes on the heels of Crabtree's agent, Eugene Parker, saying that Crabtree should be paid like a top five pick despite the fact that Crabtree was drafted with the tenth pick. This is apparently based on where Crabtree was projected to go in the draft . Parker issued a non-denial denial regarding the hold out threat but that has not kept this from becoming a hot story in the bay area.

Of course there are several reasons why Crabtree should not be paid like a top five pick. The first being that he was drafted tenth (see previous paragraph). The second is that not only was Crabtree not the top player in the draft, he wasn't even the top player at his position. That honor went to Darius Heyward-Bey who was also not a top five pick (number seven to the Raiders). Finally many sports including the NFL use an informal slotting system for paying draft picks. That is if the number one pick gets X then everyone else gets less than X with the number 2 pick getting roughly X-(1 draft slot), the number 3 pick getting X-(2 draft slots) and so on. This has the most impact at the top of the draft where there's more ego involved. #2 is never going to sign for less than #3 or #4. So with only six of the top ten picks signed so far it seems like people are waiting to see what Crabtree gets before making deals for players picked higher in the draft.

According to Ray Ratto among others I should be upset with the 49ers. I should be crying out that they do whatever it takes to sign Crabtree. After all we need him in order to win. Right? Right? Uh....right....? Sure the Niners came within a couple plays of beating Arizona twice and maybe making the playoffs but that's not enough to convince me. Who knows, maybe a game breaking wide out would have made the difference. Maybe going with Shawn Hill from the beginning would have made the difference. Maybe Eddie DeBartolo not getting popped for bribing a Louisiana Governor would have made the difference. But I'm not upset with the team. Why should they over pay a guy to come in and not make a difference on a bad team?

I think it's time for teams to go back to the days of taking stands against players and their insane demands. It seems like the teams are with me. You can find evidence of this in the Joshua Cribbs story this off-season. Cribbs wanted "Devin Hester money" but hadn't put up Devin Hester numbers. Anyone remember Sean Gilbert? Yeah. So here's why I'm a bad fan. I hope Crabtree does hold out the entire year. I hope the 49ers lose enough games to land some where between the 6th and the 10th draft pick. Then I hope they draft Crabtree again and offer him a little less than they offered him this year. And if he holds out again I hope they draft him every year until he retires. They won't need a top ten pick every year. After a while they'd be able to get him for a 2nd round pick then a 3rd round pick and so on. I'm a bad fan because I'd rather see an example made of this player than see my team win.

I guess this is what happens when the team is so bad for so long. Maybe I'd feel different if the Niners were winning and adding talent might actually mean something. For now though I'm rooting that no one wins.

Oh and if you want a laugh track back through some of the comments on Josh Cribbs article. There's an even better debate on there between me and a guy coming "off the doom."

Vick (Or Why You Should Never Debate Sir Rantalot Unless You Have Something Real to Say)

The following is an excerpt from a discussion I had regarding Michael Vick. I wasn't planning to do a Vick post but I think this excerpt sums up the two of the three different stances on Vick (the third being that he should be banned for life) rather well. I've truncated the names of the other participants since the goal here isn't to trash any identifiable individuals. This is an edited version, at a certain point two of us (me being one) said some things I don't think we're proud of which were removed by the moderator before I could do the repost.

Roberto Santiago: I'm fine with Goodell's decision regarding Vick. I'd have been fine if Goodel had not handed down any suspension at all. The thing is, Vick wasn't going to be anybody's starter this year anyway so the 6 game suspension really doesn't do anything.

Vick served his time. Now the judgement comes from the owners. If no one wants to deal with the headaches of having him on the team (media attention, fan reaction, QB controversy etc) then he won't get work this year. If I owned a team I might take a chance on him.

As for people calling out Rookie Ben, there was no criminal complaint so there's no investigation. It comes down to finger pointing. She files a law suit a year after it happened after not telling anyone about it? Yeah, sounds like someone's hoping for some hush money.

EA: With regards to Vick, he did his time and it should be done with. Roger Goodell has gotten power-drunk, and full of himself. No one man should have that amount of power in ANY organization. He is the same one whose punishment for a whole team (NE) and a Coach was tantamont to a peck on the wrist, but when it comes to the players he so Mr. Don't-take-mess.

A lot of folks will again like to bypass the fact that there are racial-undertones to these things. Forget about the fact that Roethlisberger's incident was a civil-suit. Imagine that civil-suit was against T.O, Randy Moss, or some other black athlete. Do we honestly thing that the reaction to it woulda been this mellow so far? T.O expressed his view which I think was right, and he is entitled to it. Goodell has basically told a grown man how he should run his life to please HIM before he decides to fully reinstate the man - nonesense. Take a look at the details of this suspension.

Roberto Santiago: TO and Moss have been in trouble with the league (and for Moss the law) many times in the past. Big Ben has not. If TO had Ben's rep then no, I don't think he'd be in trouble for what Ben's involved in.

" Goodell has basically told a grown man how he should ruhis life to please HIM . "

-Not to please HIM, to please the league as a whole, the owners, and the sponsors. If Vick was such a grown man who didn't need any guidance he wouldn't be involved in a multi-year criminal conspiracy. Again, it's not like Vick was going to come back as anyone's starter so the added suspension really is just for show.

Anyone remember this?

"Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player who throws a ball game, no player who undertakes or promises to throw a ball game, no player who sits in confidence with a bunch of crooked ballplayers and gamblers, where the ways and means of throwing a game are discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball."

Now that's a strong arm commissioner.

EA: It is not to please the league. There are owners as well as players that wanted Vick back with the team, so you saying the actions is the please the league is totally baseless. Vick has been suspended without pay since it was ascertained that he was involved. He has been rediculed, lost playing-time and lost millions of dollars. What else type of punishment should he endure? Before this dog-fighting case, please name the other problem that Vick pose - please name it. Since the reason Ben case gets little or no attention is because of first-time offense, please name Vick's first offense other than this. This suspension is not to satisfy any owners of the league. Any owner that needs a QB of Vick's talent will not hesitate a lick to take him. Satisfy the sponsors? What is that? 5 more games will satisfy them? Did any sponsor say that's what they were looking for?

Not to belittle the offense, but he killed a dog, there people in this society still enjoy their presitge eventhough they killed people, some of them (like some of the Presidents of this country) killed thousands of people. Oh please on the strong-arm commision - my foot. He is only strong when it comes to dealing with players. He's nothing but a kiss-up-kick-down punk.


Roberto Santiago: "There are owners as well as players that wanted Vick back with the team, so you saying the actions is the please the league is totally baseless."

The league is not the players. The league is the owners. As for "baseless" Vick remains unsigned at at least 11 teams have publicly said they don't want him. So where are these owners who want him back?

As for his previous offenses:

In early 2004, two men were arrested in Virginia for distributing marijuana. The truck they were driving was registered to Michael Vick.

In March 2005, Sonya Elliott filed a civil lawsuit against Vick alleging she contracted genital herpes from him in the autumn of 2002, and that he failed to inform her that he had the disease.

November 26, 2006 – After a Falcons loss to the New Orleans Saints in the Georgia Dome, in apparent reaction to fans booing, Vick made an obscene gesture at fans, holding up two middle fingers. He was fined $10,000 by the NFL and agreed to donate another $10,000 to charity.

He is only strong when it comes to dealing with players." -That's his job.

EA: No team wanna pick him up and pay him, while knowing he might miss 5 games. Especially, when everything depends ONLY on what the commisioner feels. His job is to be tough with players only? I thought you said he was the commissioner of the League, which in your words mean the owners? When he wants to please the League then the definition covers owners. But if he wants to get tough, the definition covers only players? Are you serious about this? He is the commissioner of the League, which I would thing includes all those under the sphere of the NFL, which includes players, owners, teams, etc.

Now on to your offenses: 1. Someone driving Vick's car, not Vick, and Vick is not in the car, but he is at fault?

2. His private sex-life, mind you his medical history which is covered by HIPAA, was violated and you call that a violation against the League?

Where do you come from with these arguments, dude? And by the way, the difference here which points again to biases, is the fact that this revelation was something sort after by espn journalists.Roethlisberger's incident fell in their lap and they did everything to conceal it. The bias even made CNN.

3. The incident on the field was a League violation, but then we must also include Roethlisberger's violation of the league's personal injury clause when he rode a bike without a helmet. I still see the bias, but I understand that you cannot. My central point surround the punk, Roger Goodell, who is full of himself. Prior to him, such incidents were reviewed by a panel of NFL officials. When he took over, he placed the decision solely in his hands alone. To me that's someone who is drunk with power, and it turnsd out he's bias. Vick did his time and he paid for it more than a 1000 dogs worth. He deserves his chance to redeem himself. Goodell is no God. I am so hoping that his skeletons will come out pretty soon. Trust me it will, he loves attention.

Roberto Santiago: "No team wanna pick him up and pay him, while knowing he might miss 5 games"

-Why not? He's out of shape and wasn't that good a QB to begin with. It's not like he was going to play anyway.

"His job is to be tough with players only? I thought you said he was the commissioner of the League, which in your words mean the owners?"

-You know that he works for the owners right? They hire the commissioner. They hire him to deal with the NFLPA. And what is he supposed to get tough with the owners about? Was Zygi Wilf on a sex cruise? Was Arthur Blank out at the Gold Club making it rain?

"Vick is not in the car, but he is at fault? "

-The league frowns upon it. They always have and that's who he's dealing with.

"His private sex-life, mind you his medical history which is covered by HIPAA, was violated"

-It was not violated. Knowingly giving someone an incurable STD can be a criminal offense. In this case it was a civil complaint and you're misapplying HIPAA. Again it shows a lack of judgment and the league frowns upon it.

Know this, if Ben gets in trouble again they will point back to this civil case and call it a pattern.

FSW: Have to admit Arthur making it rain is somewhat amusing, but Goddell aside, is Vick mentally ready to take on the role of QB right now?

Roberto Santiago: I doubt he's mentally ready and he's certainly not physically ready.

And Vick can't help the Vikings. All he can do is cause more problems for Tavaris Jackson. I've heard mention of him going to the Pats. That could work.

He'd be a threat on third down or in the Wild Cat and an insurance policy on Brady.

The Steelers also have a good history of creative use of athletic backup QBs.

EA: Roberto, I'm seeing the source of your argument and it has no objective basis. So you don't think highly of Vick, cool. It does not mean that it is okay for him to be treated unfairly. All your arguments posits that you do agree that bias is there, and that is what I am saying as well. We differ in the fact that you think that the bias is okay, and I do not think it is okay.

Andy Reid's sons did worst then Vick's friends in that car, and the league did not frown on it as you claim they always frown on things like that. The league in fact supported him. The case with Ben is a civil case as well, and it is criminal if he raped the girl. You are pointing out Mike's incident as if he was convicted, he was not. This is another place in which YOUR bias is apparent. Alas though, you agree with me that he is a kiss-up-kick-down commissioner. He's no tough commissioner.

JFM: I think Godell and the owners are more afraid of bad publicity and what that might do to their bottom line than to do what's right. Vick did his time. He should be able to play with whomever will have him. And if he screws up again.. then kick him the hell out.

Roberto Santiago: "I think Godell and the owners are more afraid of bad publicity and what that might do to their bottom line than to do what's right."

That is what's right. Vick doesn't have a right to play football. If the people who run the game don't want him around then he won't find work. People aren't falling over to sign Marvin Harrison either and he hasn't even been formally charged yet.

If no one wants to hire him to play in the NFL that's their business. Literally, it is their business they run it, they hire and fire. Of course they watch the bottom line, it's not job corps it's a business. No one owes Mike Vick anything.

Roberto Santiago: EA, you're myopic.

If you actually read what I wrote instead of looking for some one to jump you'd see that I said:

-I would have been fine if the commissioner hadn't done anything to Vick

-I would probably sign him if I owned a team.

-He would be good for the Pats or Steelers

Society didn't take anything from Vick. He's a convicted felon. He did this to himself. He chose to be involved in a criminal conspiracy. Society and the NFL don't owe him anything.

Andy Reid's sons are not league employees and Andy Reid was not involved in their crimes. Why punish Reid for his kids? Vick wasn't punished for what his friends did with his car but it shows a pattern.

Big Ben's thing isn't criminal because there's no evidence. She waited a year to file a civil suit. Just like with Vick's accuser in '05. There will be no criminal charge.

"Yo are pointing out Mike's incident as if he was convicted, he was not."

-Do you mean dog fighting? He went to Levenworth. He was convicted.

The fact is felons have a hard time getting back to work in high profile jobs. Mike Vick is being treated just like anyone else.

Oh, as for the "soft" stance towards coaches and owners remember "Spygate?"

"On September 13, for the "use of equipment to videotape an opposing team's offensive or defensive signals,"Belichick was officially fined $500,000 — the largest fine ever imposed on a coach in the league's then-87-year history, and the maximum permitted under league rules. The Patriots were also fined $250,000, and stripped of their first-round selection in the 2008 NFL Draft." -Wikipedia

500K is no joke. A 1st round pick is no joke.

Hey look, more action against coaches:

"On August 31, 2007, Goodell suspended Dallas Cowboys quarterbacks coach Wade Wilson for five games and fined him US$100,000, and suspended New England Patriots safety Rodney Harrison four games without pay, after they admitted the use of banned substances for medical purposes and to accelerate healing, ... Read Morerespectively. The league indicated to Wilson that his more severe penalty was because they held "people in authority in higher regard than people on the field." -Wikipedia

So now that we've put the "soft on owners and coaches" issue to bed I think we can dismiss the "no objective basis" comment.

In fact I may be the only person to post here who has brought actual facts, research, and a working knowledge of both the law and the league to the table. This would make me the sole presenter of objective fact so far today.

EA: Roberto it is good you know about myopia, because that actually applies to you. You argument has been spurious and nothing more. Your facts you brought to the case end up being circular and has no substance whatever to the argument. Remember, you jumped me, not the other way around and I'm okay with that. Oh I actually read what you wrote and found it to still lack an objective basis. Your comment that you would have been fine if Goodell had not handed down anything came on the heels of you stating that you are fine with Goodells FLAWED decision. So that mention is neglible to me and shows nothing about your objectivity. Your other points about Vick going to the Pats or Steelers also shows nothing about your objectivity in our (u & I) discussion because first it is certainly not YOUR insight, and it was in response to Fabunde or another person's comments.

JFM: Roberto, there's nothing objective about Vick's situation. Facts and the law aren't entering into it. It's public perception that's ruling Godell's decision. The NFL doesn't want Peta protesting at every game. I'm a little surprised that the Players Union are being such wusses. You would think they would be filing a grievance on his behalf.

Roberto Santiago: JFM,

You're right facts and law don't enter into it because this is not court. It is based on fear of protest, public perception, etc because it is a consumer driven business. If you want to keep making tons of money don't piss people off. If you look at any convicted felon you'll find that they have a hard time getting work. No one owes Vick job.

Guess what, he's probably not allowed to vote any more either. He can't leave the country. He can't travel out of state without permission from his PO. He can't own a firearm. he can't run for public office. He's a felon. Along with everything that entails.

EA: 1.You find that it is okay to hold Mike Vick accountable for his friends that are not in the NFL. Probably because they used his property. Andy Reid's sons also used his property to commit crimes, not once but twice, even after they were awaiting trial for a previous. We can do without this kind of "objectivity".

2. You agree that Vick's STD case was as similar as Ben's current case, yet you still absurdly hold it against him while looking at Ben's as mere nothing. Well, the girl in Vick's case also never filed a suit till she and Vick were through with the relationship

Roberto Santiago: EA, you're using a lot of big words but you still haven't put together a cohesive point. It is one thing to say my facts are circular, but you have yet to explain how that is or back it up with anything at all. You have yet to actually base any of your comments on anything. I'm all substance, you are a few syntactically odd collections of superfluous vocabulary.

As for who my comments are to, they are to everyone. This isn't a me-you discussion this is an open group discussion.

Finally I didn't jump you. I countered your points with my points.

EA: "Yo are pointing out Mike's incident as if he was convicted, he was not." Regarding this comment, do not try to be smart, cuz so far I haven't found you as that. You know I was refering to Vick's STD case and not the Dog-fighting case. $250,000 and a 1st round draft pick, of which they had two, is a severe punishment for a team? Who the hell is your weedman? He must be good. Cuz only someone with an impaired mind will see that as severe. Oh I forgot it is not weed, you do have myopia. $500,000 thousand for a coach that makes approxy $5mil+ a year is severe? He lost not one week of coaching, and still got to be coach of the year. Are you kidding someone?

Let us be frank bro, there is absolutely no insight and objectivity in the facts you brought up. My responses to you have been quick off the doom, while you have scoured around to pick up news clippings. The funny thing about it is that they are not supporting your points - that is if you are claiming that there is no bias.

Roberto Santiago: EA, you're not really processing my comments.

1. Again, Vick is showing a pattern. Andy Reid had some bad luck with his kids. I just re-read some of the articles about the Reid kids, nothing indicates it was Andy Reid's cars.

2. What I said is Vick has shown a pattern and Ben has not. IF Ben gets in trouble again they will look back to his current situation and say "There's a pattern." Ben had better watch his step in the future.

EA: I have countered the substance of all your clippings without having to scour the web. That you name the dates does not mean there is any substance to your argument, it just meant that you found a clipping from somewhere. Quite often, lemmings like you that have not point, tend to inject ad hominem in these arguments and I usually try to guide your type back to the substance of the argument. In this case, I won't. You give your appraisal of me, well here is my appraisal of you. You are one of two kinds of lemmings. More than likely, you are the kind of lemming that probably grew up impoverished, but with some luck and mediocre work, you find yourself fortunate now. So all of a sudden, the world is level to you - because you got lucky. Or you are the kind of lemming. You grew up priviledge and have had daddy's spoon in your mouth the whole damn time, and lack real-life experiences. Either way, your insights protray lack of objectivity and lack of intellect.

Roberto Santiago: "My responses to you have been quick off the doom"

-Indeed. and that's my point. You bring nothing except what's in your tiny malformed little brain. You haven't backed up anything, you have no understanding of business, sports leagues, or reading for content.

That I bring up facts at all is the only measure of objectivity. You've brought up nothing. You've got nothing. You said Goodell never punished any coaches or owners and I gave you several examples. Now all you can say is they're not good enough? And you're obsessed with Andy Reid because you know my other arguments are rock solid.

The fact is you've presented nothing. It's easy to tear someone down when you've been not only wrong, but ignorant on top of that. Coming "quick off the doom" isn't something to be proud of.

EA: Go back my friend and look at your arguments, you have used the big words that lack any meaning. I stated there were biases in the system and that Goodell's power is unchecked. You have yet to counter my points that there are biases in the system, or that Goodell's power is not unchecked. You go and pick up news clippings that only highlight the same biases that I'm talking about. And no, stop being a liar, you countered every patterned I mentioned regarding Ben. You can't counter all the patterns, and then try to claim that you still accept them. They work for someone that is unable to see the nothingness of your arguments, but not me. Also, while the overall discussion is with everyone, clearly you and I are having a separate discussion. Probably you may need to read clippings again to orient yourself. Also, there are responses from you that were to my points, and responses to the points of others. I focus on your responses that are to my points so I can respond to you.

Roberto Santiago: Let's break it down "off the doom"

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim,"

-I've brought a ton of facts to the table. You've brought nothing but attacks on me and misinterpretations of nearly everything else. (BTW the league doesn't have a "personal injury policy" some acts are forbidden in individual player contracts negotiated with individual teams, not the league)

"rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim."

-Bring some facts son!

Dude, What does this even mean?

"And no, stop being a liar, you countered every patterned I mentioned regarding Ben. You can't counter all the patterns, and then try to claim that you still accept them"

Try again, in English this time.

But you're not focusing on my points, you're focusing on me. You think you're clever hurling insults but all it does is reinforce the fact that you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Here's the thing. You can disagree with Goodell's decision. That's fine. I can not care either way (which was my original point). But the bottom line is that no one owes Vick anything. He does not have a right to play football.

omething Fabunde touched on but no one else has mentioned:

Can Vick actually help a team win right now?

Conventional wisdom seems to say "no." He hasin't played or been in a real conditioning program for 2 years. You don't just roll out of bed and play in the NFL. He's got to gethis timing down, learn a new system that will not be tailored to him like the falcons offense was and get used to being hit again.

Remember, Jamal Lewis went to jail for 2 months and had a bad year coming back.

Also we're talking about a guy who has never had a season in which he completed 60% of his passes, thrown for 3,000 yards and has had only one year with a QB rating above 78. The fact is he wasn't a great passer to begin with and now he's rusty. It's entirely possible that the suspension will help him by not having any pressure to come in and start right away.

After this the conversation petered out. I think the point here is that if you're the type of person who is proud of the fact that your opinion is completely un-researched and based solely on what you have rattling around in your "doom" you probably shouldn't get into too many debates.

Too Many MCs not Enough Time

Friday, May 13, 2005


As seems to be the case more an more often these days it's been a while since my last post. I'm sure this costing me the attention of even my meager audience but what can I say? Maybe I'm overwhelmed by all the crap in the world. It seems like everyday there's something that makes me shake my head. Or, perhaps I'm so content that I've become complacent and unable to Rant. Life has been pretty good lately. I still have a good job with prospects of getting better. I've got a few irons in the fire in terms of other projects. I'm moving in with a guy and saving some money. Life is good. Or maybe it's just that I work too much and play too much and just don't have the time or the mental energy required for writing. Whatever it is it's led to this, not quite a "dot dot dot" column, but a few quick hits on things that have been rattling around my brain.

Disenfranchised voters, judicial impropriety, illegal gifts, it's not national politics, it's not South America, it's American Idol and it's getting more attention than Tom Delay and the Pope combined. Who gives a crap if Paula got her groove back? It's not a real contest! This is not steroids in baseball, this is not point shaving in the NCAA tournament, this is American Karaoke. It doesn't matter, it effects no one, and the guy got eliminated anyway. No harm no foul. Now can we get back to talking about Medicare, Social Security, House Ethics, Congressional Filibusters and Oakland's Bullpen? Jeez.

How great would it be for The Artful Roger to get traded back to Boston? Let's face it: Houston is done. If they're out of it at the trade deadline why not send Roger to a contender? After all he only came to Houston because he thought he and Petite could get the Astros to the series. Well, they couldn't. There are several interesting possibilities for Roger's future if he is indeed traded. Really, you could put any contender in this list, but I'll name my favorites.

-Chicago (AL or NL): The Sox look legit, and they don't have the glaring pitching holes they had when they ran through the AL, only to get demolished in the playoffs, in 2000. If the Sox are in it then I don't see how they could not push for Clemens. As for the Cubs, well, if they climb out of their current hole they should go for it too. After watching what Boston did last year the Cubs have to figure they're next. Besides, Clemens isn't going to want to be a savior and have to carry a team on his own, if he could join an healthy Prior and Wood then why not go for it? After all, Greg Maddux makes a pretty scary fourth starter.

-Texas: They're young, good and in the hunt, but they have no pitching. I guy like Roger may be what the Rangers need to overcome The The Angels Angels of Anaheim, and Seattle. Texas has a history of bringing in aging power pitchers. By going to Texas Roger could cement his legacy (as if he needs to) by tying himself further to the man to whom he is often compared, Nolan Ryan.

-New York: No I don't mean the Mets though it would be interesting to see the "what could have been" of Clemens and Pedro together. It's interesting that for years people said that these two were good in part because they could pitch inside without fear of retribution yet both have excelled so far on the senior circuit. Of course the only option for Roger in NY is the Yanks assuming they're even close. In my mind it would be sad to see Roger got to NY only to miss the playoffs anyway, but it would be a nice thing rub in my cousin's face.

-Boston: This is the best story. If only this could happen. Roger going back to Boston to team with Schilling, the man whose career he saved, to rewrite the final chapter of his tenure with the franchise he was so closely identified with is...well, it's something George Lucas would come up with. A story of redemption so Hollywood it almost makes me want the Sox to win the world series again just so my kids could have one more baseball legend to dream about. Roger helping the Sox to another title would rival last year's Sox run in terms of scale and spectacle. Mr. McLane, please send Roger back to Boston.

Rip-a-ping-ping, the A's dodged a bullet when they didn't resign Giambi. As the steroid cloud follows this fallen figure I don't know whether to laugh or just shrug it all off. In a way Giambi is getting exactly what he deserves after stabbing an entire city in the back. How's that top ten list look now Jason? Now the Yanks want to send him to the minors so he can rebuild his swing and maybe fix his head. The problem is Giambi doesn't want to go. He should. If he doesn't it only confirms what fans in Oakland have suspected since he left in 2001, that he's all about the money. Before he got paid Giambi seemed like a throwback bad boy playing for the pure joy of it. Now he seems like a brooding selfish ass putting himself before the team. The reality is if he doesn't start hitting soon he's going to be a waste of a roster spot. Still, like I said a few months ago, I'd take him back on the cheap if he showed that he really did want to redeem himself. Be humble Jason, be contrite, that's all you need to do to start turning it around.

On an side note, Miggy's making us look like idiots for choosing to go after Giambi, and then Chavez and totally ignoring Tejada. Quick comparison:

Tejada: .348/10/36/.390/1.050
Chavez: .195/02/10/.275/.553
Giambi: .195/03/06/.386/.711

Wow, after looking at those numbers I have to wonder if Chavez destroyed his BALCO evidence before the Feds got to it. Of course it could be that both Giambi and Chavez are in wicked slumps that they'll pull out of. The real difference is that Giambi went to NY and has to accept everything that goes with it including the scrutiny that Chavez has managed to escape thus far.

In more A's related news; the bullpen sucks. After leading the league in blown saves and losing the division by one game last year the A's tried to upgrade their bullpen during the off-season. Oakland added power arms in Juan Cruz and rookie Huston Street to go along with closer Octavio Dotel. Still the A's pen has failed to hold leads in recent weeks, the most glaring example being back to back blown saves against the Red Sox. It seems like missing soft tossers like Chad Bradford (DL-back) is hurting the A's because they have no change of pace type relievers to throw out there.

Moving to football, Rod Gardner wants out of Washington and it wouldn't take much to get him at this point. A former first round pick, Gardner has a modest base salary and though he hasn't lived up to his potential the past couple years he has been very solid under difficult circumstances. If anyone should be willing to risk a 6th or 7th round pick on Gardner it should be the Forty Niners. Gardner would come relatively cheap in terms of cap room as well since Washington would still be responsible for the balance of his signing bonus. SF needs dependable receivers to help number one pick Alex Smith adjust to the NFL. Gardner isn't a super star, think JJ Stokes with better hands, but he can be the steady position type receiver that SF thought they were getting in Curtis "Stone Hands" Conway last year. The SF receiving corps took a step backwards last year with each of their young receivers seeming to regress. I loved the pick of Arnaz Battle but now I wonder if he'll ever be more than a Nate Singleton/ Dexter Carter type player. Bringing in Gardner to complement Brandon Lloyd and to give last year's number one pick Rashaun Woods time to mature would be a good move provided Gardner understood that he wasn't being brought in to save the franchise and would not be getting a new deal as part of the trade.

Speaking of SF receivers I don't understand why SF wouldn't want to bring Jerry Rice back as a player-coach for one last season. Rice could come in for a minimum deal with no bonus and take advantage of the recent rule that allows veteran players with minimum deals to count only half their salary against the cap. At this point in his career Rice could serve as a great mentor to SF's young receivers in a way that he never could when he still believed he was a top-flight player himself. Also, even at his age, Rice could be a good third down type guy, especially in a four receiver set going against a team's fourth corner.

I think it's great that new Forty Niner coach Mike Nolan petitioned the league for permission to wear a jacket and tie on the sidelines rather than the coaches polo and warm ups that have become the norm in recent years. Aside from a few exceptions (Tom Landry) coaches have sported a more casual sideline look since before Nolan's dad Dick Nolan coached the Niners. In a sports scene dominated by throwbacks why not a throwback style coach? Look up a picture of Lawrence “Buck” Shaw aka "The Silver Fox" and tell me that isn't a great look for an NFL coach.

Final thoughts...Eagles owner Jeffery Laurie says TO isn't getting a new deal. Huzzah! Laurie and head coach Andy Reid should be applauded for taking a hard line with the hard head. Right now Owens has few options since he has not been given permission to seek a trade. He can sit out and miss out on this year's salary (a move that backfired on Sean Gilbert), he can admit defeat and report to training camp with the hope that he'll be traded at some point, or he can retire, thus forfeiting the rest of his signing bonus. If he retires and decides to come back his Eagles contract would be reinstated. Here's hoping that the Eagles tell him he can play for their money or sit out forever, or at least until an equal value deal comes along...Every time I come across the name Drew Henson I wonder if anyone's ever made as much money for doing so little. In fact, stat for stat Henson is even more over paid than A-fRod Henson got more than 10 mil from the Yankees and never came up from AAA for more than a cup of coffee, and he was so underwhelming in Dallas last year that Parcells traded for Drew Bledsoe...Which reminds me of that old joke, what's less mobile, Drew Bledsoe or a cardboard cutout of Drew Bledsoe?...Let's Go Nats!...Speaking of which, it's amazing how many prospects came out of the Expos system considering they once had both Dan Duquette and Kevin Malone in their front office...Summer reading? Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty, You Gotta Have Wa, The Meaning of Ichiro, Aces, Moneyball...That oughta hold ya.

-SR
12:44 pm edt