Myles Garrett Fight a Teachable Moment

My kids go to bed around 8:00pm. Occasionally they are allowed to stay up later depending on what's going on that night, a school event or a World Series game or what have you. Once they're in bed, we expect them to stay there unless they have to attend to some bodily function. Other reasons for getting up are generally met with skepticism and encouragement to get some rest.

Last night was a little different. I was happy when Buddy emerged from his room shortly after lights out complaining of an itchy foot. Something was unfolding on Thursday Night Football that I thought would be immediately applicable to his life.

Buddy has had the typical struggles at school with conflict resolution. Nothing extreme. Just the normal things you might expect from boys in  public school, at least from my experience. Lately he's been dealing with some bullying and some peer pressure about "snitching." We've always told him to find an adult rather than get in a fight. Sadly, that message hasn't always been reinforced by the adults around him when he has sought their help. Instead, he has often been left to fend for himself, and then gotten reprimanded for his actions. Though all of that, we have encouraged him to find ways to avoid fighting. Specifically, we want him to extract himself from conflict as soon as he recognizes it. Argument getting heated? Walk away. Someone looking like they want to fight? Walk away. Someone getting physical? Defend yourself to the extent necessary to safely get away. The theme is that you are going to face points in any conflict where you can end it by disengaging and walking away instead of risking making things worse.

The problem is, he's a kid so it's hard for him to remember these things in the moment. Let's be real, a lot of adults, when faced with fight or flight, don't make the decision we'd all prefer. Add in the school environment and it becomes very difficult for kids to avoid conflict when it's thrust upon them.

The other factor is that while I don't want him fighting, I do think he's a allowed to defend himself and I don't want to hear complaints about how he does it. I have long held the belief that if you pick a fight with someone, you don't get to complain about their response. If there's an outcome to the fight that you feel would go too far, don't start the fight. I was one of the few people who wrote defending LeGarrette Blount back in in 2009. Don't bully people. Don't tease them every day until they explode. If you do, you need to accept that one day things may go very badly for you. I don't mean school shooters or anything that extreme, that's a whole other level that is way more layered than what I'm addressing here. I mean more the A Christmas Story type of bullying and response.

So that's the background for last night when we saw a football fight unlike anything most of us have ever seen. I want to be clear, Myles Garrett should be suspended for at least the rest of this season and maybe more. When he is eligible, reinstatement should come with conditions like having taken and passed anger management training. What he did was inexcusable. At the same time, Mason Rudolph needs to take accountability for his part in the melee. It was Rupdolph who first went after Garrett's head and helmet, and it was Rudolph who pursued Garrett at a point where the fight could have been over.

It's this last point that I went over with Buddy. That there were several points during the altercation where each party faced a decision to let it end, or to keep fighting. In each instance, they made the wrong choice. Here's a breakdown of what I told him and how I think this fight provides a good teachable moment on de-escalation.

Moment 1: The Tackle

It's not really a dirty tackle, but it continues on past the quarterback releasing the ball. He's not injured and it's a tackle, not a high impact hit. It's not late, Garrett simply finishes the play. You can see why Rudolph might be annoyed, but there's nothing to get super angry about. It seems like Rudolph's reaction has more to do with previous hits to Steelers players and Rudolph's own frustration with throwing four interceptions. It could have been over right here with no fight at all, but Rudolph lost his cool.

Moment 2: Rudolph's Poor Choice

So the tackle is over and Mason Rudolph, with less than 30 seconds left in the game, has a choice. He can get up and maybe voice his displeasure at the tackle, letting the clock run and mercifully ending the game, or trying to rip Garrett's helmet off. He goes for the latter. This is a bad idea for many reasons. One of those reasons is that Garrett is much bigger an much more used to hitting people than is Rudolph.

Moment 3: Garrett Retaliates

At this point Garrett is able to extract himself with head and helmet still attached to his shoulders. Unscathed, Garrett could have gotten up, done a little dance or whatever defensive players like to do after getting to the QB and let the clock run out. Instead, Garrett decides to show Rudolph how pulling off a helmet should go. He picks Rudolph up by the face mask, then throws him back down and comes away with the helmet.

Moment 4: Rudolph the Helmetless QB Can't Take a Hint

At this point the scuffle is effectively broken up. #66 David DeCastro and #71 Matt Feiler have Garrett locked up and are between him and Rudolph. Rudolph is again faced with a choice. Because the ball was thrown across the field and because Garrett's retaliation was so visible, there's a chance Rudolph's initial action went unnoticed, or will be overlooked. If he stops now, it's a penalty against Cleveland or at worst, offsetting penalties and the game likely ends on the next play. Instead, having a bad day in which he could not prove his skill throwing a football, he decides to prove he's a tough guy. Again, this is a monumentally bad idea for several reasons, not the least of which is that he's deciding to go after the much bigger man who just tackled him and then won the ensuing helmet-pull-off competition. It also misses an opportunity to end the altercation before it gets worse for everyone. This is the big point here. Each of these moments are opportunities to end things before they get worse.

Moment 5: Garrett Does the Unthinkable

Fueled by anger and frustration, and perhaps emboldened by the two 300 pound men between him and his target, Rudolph decides to go after Garrett. Maybe he just wants to talk. Garrett is now faced with his own decision. He could drop the helmet and walk away. He could throw the helmet down field like Kyle Turley. He could have done literally anything other than what he did and this story might be over in 24-hours. Instead, he decides to use the helmet as a weapon and club Rudolph in the head. It's completely over the top. It's completely uncalled for. It's shocking. But it's not a complete surprise given how things had been escalating. I'll emphasize again, there's no way Garrett should have swung that helmet. There's no defense for it. At the same time, both players had multiple opportunities to walk away. By not taking those opportunities, they both bear some responsibility for what happened.

After all this, Rudolph's teammates subdued Garrett by punching him in and near the face mask several times, pinning him to the ground and then kicking and punching him in the head. Rudolph continued to half heartedly pursue the scuffle until being knocked down again by one of Garrett's teammates. Garrett, his teammate and the Steelers player who kicked Garrett in the head have all been suspended. Garrett is out for at least the rest of the season and possibly longer. For now, Rudolph has escaped a suspension but is likely to be fined.

As a parent, the lesson here is that in any conflict there are always opportunities to walk away. There is almost always an out. It may not feel great in the moment. You might feel like you're being a punk or losing face. Those are temporary feelings. If you can look past the moment and think even briefly about the possible consequences of your next action, you'll be able to avoid a lot of potential trouble. Continuing to fight in that moment rarely leads to a real win, but could end up with long term negative consequences.

I was satisfied that I had an opportunity to share this lesson with my son in that moment. I hope he can use it today at school. I want him to understand and recognize all the times he doesn't have to fight. Part of that is to keep him safe and on the right side of society. Part of it so I know I can back him up and trust him when he feels like does have to fight, though I hope that never happens.

As is often the case, after he went back to bed I realized that the same lesson applies to all of us in all of our relationships, that I need to apply this same lesson when I'm frustrated with a kid who won't clean up or is refusing to brush their teeth. I need to be able to see where I'm letting my bad day or my need to be in charge lead me down a destructive path. There's no chance of me hitting them, but I don't want to say things or behave in ways that could damage our relationship long term.

Myles Garrett's actions last night were terrible, but hopefully it's something we can all learn from.

Hanging with Ronnie Lott and Von Miller (for like, 5-minutes)

Me and a blurry but happy Ronnie Lott

When I started this blog back in 2003, it wasn't what it is now. For one thing, only nine people read it. The focus was also very different. I wrote a lot about sports, especially baseball, and I tried to bring a unique analytical spin. This was back before Baseball Prospectus and Football Outsiders started providing really good stats based writing and blew me out of the water completely. After I became a parent the focus of this space changed. I still write about sports, but mostly as it relates to my kids and what I can teach them (or what they teach me) through sports.

Last week was the annual Dad 2.0 Summit, a conference for dad bloggers to network with each other, and to interact with brands. It was also my chance to meet and chat with Super Bowl winning NFL players past and present. The opening key note featured former San Francisco 49ers great and Hall-of-Famer, Ronnie Lott and his son Ryan Nece talking about fatherhood. They both emphasized the importance of vulnerability, and being able to show that you are vulnerable, as key components of not only being a father, but also being a teammate, and a man. Lott explained that he wanted Nece to take his mother's maiden name so that Nece wouldn't grow up carrying the name of an all-time great player. It gave Nece a chance to be himself, and even to turn away from football if he'd wanted, without pressure from others.

Beyond fatherhood, the two gave insight into an NFL locker room. Nece indicated that a lot of "locker room talk" really centers around parenting and personal finance. The numbers behind athletes going broke after retirement are well known, and modern players are trying to avoid doing that. Nece also said that many players talk to each other about where to send kids to school. Lott added that with men for whom the locker room is a workplace, there's little time or space for bawdy conversations. Said Lott, "The thing is, it’s your job. There’s not many jobs where you go talk about of off color things. You’re trying to figure out life."

There was a touching moment when Nece told a story about asking his dad how to cope with failure. "I asked him, 'what did you do when you had a bad game, made the wrong play?' He told me, 'Son, I never made a bad play.'" The larger point was that you learn from failure and you move on. You understand that everyone fails at some point. It's what you learn from it, how you move on to the next play that matters. It's something I've tried to impress on my students in the years that I've been teaching. Nothing succeeds like success, but nothing can teach you to succeed better than trying and failing.

Lott also addressed the issue of kneeling during the National Anthem.

"I salute the flag for a host of reasons. The great thing about #TakeAKnee, though, is the courage to do something to hopefully make the world better." @RonnieLottHOF #RealStrength #Dad2Summit

— Dad 2.0 Summit (@dad2summit) February 2, 2018

For me there's always some trepidation in meeting people you looked up to as a child. I loved Ronnie Lott when he was with the 49ers. I was five-years-old when Lott and the 49ers won their first Super Bowl. This was back before 24-hour sports networks (we didn't have cable) were pervasive. It was before social media. All you really knew about athletes was what they said in post-game interviews. So there's always a fear that they'll end up being something other than what you hope for. Brent Jones and Gary Plummer are staunch republicans. Even Jerry Rice threw out a #MAGA tweet during the election. So I was worried about what Lott would say. He was everything I'd hoped for. He made little five-year-old Tito beam with joy.

At previous Dad 2.0 conferences NFL stars Peanut Tillman and Michael Strahan were whisked away fairly quickly. Lott and Nece walked out through the ball room, stopping to chat with people. I didn't want to take up too much of Lott's time, but I had to say hello. I expected a quick handshake and greeting. He surprised me by stopping and seeming genuinely interested in my question, what was it like coming in as a class with Carlton Williamson and Eric Wright? "It was great, because we all genuinely liked each other. We had a special bond." I asked him about a story I'd read about him and Williamson passing off receivers and switching coverages without discussing it with the coaching staff. He didn't seem to recall it, but said it probably happened. I wanted to ask him about the psychology of switching positions, something many great athletes hesitate to do, but his handlers wanted him to get moving.

(More after this enormous embedded photo)

Breaking it down to a skeptical looking @vonmiller Very cool brief convo on working with brands, expressing personality, hits on Cam, and the future of FA QBs. Thanks Von, @bestbuy and @dad2summit

A post shared by An Interdisciplinary Life (@aninterdisciplinarylife) on Feb 2, 2018 at 4:25pm PST

 This year I was also lucky enough to be included in a chance to meet Super Bowl MVP Von Miller, thanks to Best Buy. It was clear from the ticket that we wouldn't have much time with him and I had no idea what the format would be. I wracked my brain for something I could ask that might be even slightly original. He'd already answered every conceivable sports question. I wasn't a big enough Broncos fan to know any cool trivia. ESPN had already scooped me on the chicken farming angle. Then I remembered his ads. He always comes across as a kind of a nerd, from his dancing to his glasses. I decided to ask him how much input he gets when doing a commercial. How much does he get to guide the look and feel of how he's presented?



His answer was predictable. It was the kind of answer you get form a savvy, polished media personality. "I choose my endorsements carefully and work with brands that already understand who I am and what I'm about. So I don't need to control the process that much. I trust the people I have around me." It was a solid answer, even if it wasn't eye opening. We also took a moment to reminisce about his two strip-sacks of Cam Newton in the Super Bowl. As I was finishing my time I had to ask him his thoughts on free agent quarterback Kurt Cousins. "Oh he's coming! He is coming!" Miller exclaimed.

So there you have it. My NFL reporting from Dad 2.0 uncovered that Von Miller is all in on Kurt Cousins, geek is chic, and vulnerability is masculinity. Take care, y'all.

Why Go to NFL Training Camp?

It has almost never occurred to me to attend an NFL training camp practice. I've been a 49er fan for as long as I can remember. I really like football. I've been the commissioner of the same fantasy football league for 14 years. I like going to games. I spend most Sundays watching football. Still, the idea of going out to a practice facility that isn't really designed to accommodate crowds to sit in the heat and pay $7 for water has never appealed to me. I mean, what's the point of watching practice? Sounds boring and inconvenient right?

That's what I thought too. So when the 49ers sent out tweets, emails, and Facebook invites to their open practice this summer my answer was, "Yeah right. Never." Not three hours later my friend Daniel sent me a text:

"I just won tickets to 49ers practice on Saturday, want to go?"

I think I took all of thirty seconds to think about it. "Yes!" I replied. I did still wonder if it was going to be fun. I didn't even know where it was.  After finding out it wasn't in Napa (that's where the Raiders practice, duh) I was happy to hear it was at Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara and not at the practice facility. I was even happier to read that the food would be free.

Seriously, bro. Free food.

OK, let's go.

Daniel is awesome and suggested I bring Buddy with us. I was excited to see a new stadium, and Buddy had been wanting to go to an NFL game. I can't afford that right now, so this was good chance to get him an NFL experience on the cheap, and for a duration (it was a 4 hour event) that he can handle.

The only problem we encountered is that the parking and traffic flow around the stadium were terrible. They had traffic cops out to help, but it seem like a planning issue that just wasn't addressed well. Other than that, it was actually pretty cool.

Why should you consider attending an NFL training camp practice? Read on for my unsorted, semi-chronological list.

1. It's not crowded if it's at the stadium:

YMMV but it's unlikely 50,000 people are going to show up for practice. The concourse isn't crowded, there are plenty of bathrooms, there's shade. Also, the Kid Zone games don't have long lines.

2. Free Food:

Maybe only terrible teams like the 49ers are doing this, but it was very cool. And it wasn't just the cheapo/terrible stuff. The sausages were legit. They also had nachos, pizza, soft drinks, bottled water and a bunch more available. The line moved quickly. You could buy beer/wine (of course wine, it's the 49ers) for $14 if you wanted.

3. Open Seating:

Again, a more popular or recently successful team may have their event fill up, not so in Santa Clara. We watched part of practice from seats we could certainly never afford. Buddy liked watching the 11-on-11 drills from up close. It was almost like watching a game. If you're in my tax bracket this is as close as you're likely to get. You get a good sense of the speed and power of the players when you're this close. Also, dude, look how cushy these chairs are.

4. Nerding out:

I actually enjoyed watching the punt coverage and 1:1 passing drills more than I thought I would. I was reminded that I like watching practice because you can get a sense of how each part of a play is broken down into smaller group or individual responsibilities. It's also great because you can really see differences in technique by each player. They run through the same drill over and over, which allows you to suss out what players do well, and what they're working on. If you're football nerd there's a lot to see.

5. There are chances to get closer:

A lot of fans were able to go down on the field to watch the end of practice. I'm not sure how other people got their passes, but we got ours because my friend complained about the parking situation on Twitter. Not sure why that worked, but his guess was, "It could be because I have a verified account." By hook or by crook, we ended up down on the field during the two-minute drill. That was very cool. The offense was driving towards us and viewing everything from that vantage point allowed us to get a sense for the size and speed of the players. At one point Jeremy Kerley ran an out-route, made a great catch, and his momentum took him right into our knot of spectators. A few plays later Brian Hoyer threw a touchdown while standing just a few yards away from us.

6. They're good to kids:

For this event kids under six got in free. The adult fans were happy to let Buddy stand in front of them, right at the rope that cordoned off our viewing area, so he could see. The security guards held their gruff security guard demeanor with the adults, but one of them was genuinely playful and kind to Buddy. He even made it on the Jumbotron again, making it his fourth time in four different stadiums. But the highlight was the players, who were polite at worst, and jubilantly interactive at their best. Wide receivers Marquise Goodwin and Jeremey Kerley were very accommodating to fan requests and stopped to chat with Buddy briefly while signing his jersey. Punter, Brad Pinion chuckled when I told him he was my favorite player. He doesn't know about my abiding love for kickers and special teamers. Most of the players were able to see through the throng of adults shoving hats and posters at them, picking out the kids and going to them first.

Buddy with the Niners top 3 WRs: Garcon, Kerley and Goodwin

Buddy being able to meet players and get autographs was a special moment for me too. When I was five-years-old my mom took me to some 49ers banquet she had been invited to by a co-worker. I have no idea who I met that night, but I know they were players, and they were really nice to me. I specifically remember one spending a long time playing with my stuffed bunny with me. I left with a bunch of signed swag, all of which was lost to time over various moves and the fact that my mom didn't value it and I was little. Still, I was hooked on the Niners from then on.

So if you've ever thought about going to an NFL training camp I suggest looking to see if your team is doing an event day. That's likely going to be the best organized day. If you don't live near your team, the practice environment can be fun. I wasn't excited about the idea of attending training camp, but I gave it a shot, and it was fun for everyone. I definitely recommend a trip for football fans who may not have considered it.

Economic Theory and Bad Parenting

The buckets are not actual buckets.

My kids are a little bit obsessed with money. Not in a terrible way, but it does make me a little bit uncomfortable. (This past month they have been talking about wanting to live "in a big fancy house." It's been kind of a bummer.) Ever since they were little we have tried to introduce the concepts of budgeting and smart shopping with them. This usually related to how they would spend Christmas money that came in from various family members.

We've been doing allowance with Buddy since he turned six a few months back. It's been going pretty well. We've done the three bucket approach where we expect him to put some amount of his money into buckets for spending, saving, and donating. It's been great actually. The spending money has allowed him to buy things that we wouldn't normally buy for him. His first big buy came when we were at Target and he realized he had enough money to buy a LEGO set he'd been pining over in his catalog.  A few weeks later he treated himself and his sister to treats at a baseball game.

The other buckets have come to have their own purposes as well. The saving bucket has mostly been used to replace things he loses or breaks carelessly. For example he was at a friend's house and broke the kid's piggy bank. So he used his savings to help replace it. Kind of like what his parents (us) did with their roof. It's been a good lesson on why saving is important. He has decided to use the donation bucket to give money to our church, and also to donate to causes we read about or discuss.

Buddy always knows how much money he has, and how much he needs for whatever thing it is he's got his eye on. He's also started to identify the types of things he thinks we won't shell out for and often says, "It's OK, I can get that if I save my money." We've even had a discussion of how credit works when he doesn't have his wallet and wants to pay me back for something.

Lou is also becoming more interested in money and often wishes she had as much as her brother does. She sometimes laments that she does not also have three buckets, but just a piggy bank, which is low on clank after she decided that her coins were pretty and repeatedly took them out to play with them, resulting in her losing most of them.

The kids are also aware that we have reached the maximum "stuff" limit in our little home. Since we moved we have one fewer room than we had at the previous house. The result has been a purging of toys and clothes that really should have happened previously. The kids have heard several times over the last year that if we want any new things we have to figure out what old things we can donate or let go of. This has come into sharper focus recently as the kids have gotten deep into LEGOs and want to expand their collection.

All of these ideas coalesced into one case of bad parenting last weekend. On Saturday our neighbors held a yard sale. They were doing all at once what we had been doing piece by piece, paring down and getting rid of things. The kids loved it. They hadn't known that you could get rid of old items by selling them in front of the house. We had always just donated things or given them away on Freecycle. They bought a few things from the neighbors. I had no idea what was coming.

Sunday was a lazy day for us. We came home after church and fell into our various activities. The kids played, T tended to the baby and likely did something productive, I sat down to enjoy the first week of the NFL. At some point I pulled the classic dad move and fell asleep in front of the TV. As I drifted through a semi-conscious state I remember hearing Buddy declare, "Hey Lou, let's have a yard sale." I thought, "That's cute, they're going to play a game."

I woke up some time later to the sound of a barking dog and Buddy saying, "OK, well we'll be here all day if you want to buy some toys." I wandered out to the living room and peered out the door. Sure enough, there were the kids with toys strewn about the lawn, Buddy doing a half carnival barker, half Fox-from-Pinocchio act gently tossing coins in his hand and enjoying the weight of them.

"Scarcho Man" was once Buddy's very favorite toy. 

It wasn't a game. "Good job dad," I thought, "sleeping on the job. Today it was a yard sale, next time it'll be cooking meth or playing with firearms." I felt a bit conflicted. On the one hand I admired their drive. I was also happy that they had chosen things that they felt they didn't need and could do with out. On the other hand I was sad to see that some old favorites had been out for sale. It seemed to mark a transition from a sentimental age where everything you own is precious, to one where things are just things and are not imbued with any intrinsic value. It was a loss of a certain kind of innocence, the kind that makes us love the story of The Velveteen Rabbit. I also had a nagging feeling that I should have been part of the process. Not to reject any of their decisions, just to be there and be involved. But I wasn't. I was asleep.

"Hey guys," I said as I sauntered out of the house in bare feet, "this is cool, but you can't sell the baby's toys." I scooped up a few things that Yo wasn't finished chewing on yet. I marveled a bit at my little capitalists. I'm still not sure what they sold, or how they determined their pricing. Based on what was left my guess is that their love of Hot Wheels is on the wane. I haven't seen an Lightning McQueens around lately.

As surprising as their little endeavor was I was more surprised by the plan they had for their profits. A short time later they declared the yard sale over and came inside. "Here dad." Buddy said holding out his hand. He plunked 85 cents in assorted coins into my hand. "What's this? I asked. "Well," he replied, "I wanted everyone in the family have some money. We made some good sales, but if you have money you should share it with people around you." So my little salesmen were actually socialists. I don't think I'm a socialist, I don't know what I am, but I was happy to see the kids being generous.

I feel like there's supposed to be some kind of lesson here, I just can't think of what it is. I definitely think I need to be able to shake myself a little better when I overhear the kids planning something. Waking up to the aftermath wasn't a great feeling. Or maybe it's that I got an early glimpse into the fact that even though it sometimes feels like we're just telling kids things, they actually are listening and will eventually find a way to put our words into action.

Yeah. I like that second one.

Skills to Avoid the Bills

If you gave me a million dollars for this I'd probably stop doing it after a while.

Can we get a few things straight here? Please? Specifically regarding payment for services and how much and whatnot? Can we? I’ll warn you now, I’m in a hurry and I’m not going to do a lot of research on this one, I’m just gonna shoot from the hip. Agreed? Fuck, they’re rants after all right? Right.

Here’s the deal, an accumulation of comments has been bugging me lately capped off by Adrian Peterson’s comment that being an NFL player is “like modern day slavery.” Yes, the guy set to make $10.4M once the NFL resumes business in 2011 is a slave. Others who have been referred to as slaves recently include college athletes who claim that their so called labor and likenesses are used by the NCAA and member schools with no compensation. A group of these college athletes led by former UCLA basketball star Ed O'Bannon has recently sued the NCAA and EA Sports for unfair practices. I think the Peterson quote is something we can all dismiss as blatant stupidity. The student athlete is a little more complicated. When these kids accept their scholarships they sign away their rights to the NCAA forever. Basically the scholarship agreement allows the NCAA to use the kids' image etc for marketing purposes any way the NCAA wants in perpetuity. I don't know if I agree with that. But the fact is, the kids do have a choice, don't sign. If you think you're all that and you think you're going to be a legend who's going to be plastered on water bottles and billboards decades after you leave school then hold out for a better deal. And don't tell me you don't get paid. You get a free education, books, dorm, meal plan, etc. You know, the shit the rest of us are going tens of thousands of dollars into debt for. You also often get tutoring, you get to travel and get excused absences from class. You get say you played college sports. You get a ton. You. Get. Paid. Period. Maybe the NCAA shouldn't own you forever, but without them you wouldn't have some famous image to put out there. You'd be like the rest of us. No one wants to see me in a video game.

Let's talk a little more about being paid. Another group recently compared to slaves in my presence is white suburban housewives. In a class discussion on Dorothy Smith's book "Ethnography for the People" we examined her redefinition of the term "work." Basically she says work is anything you do intentionally. The point is to frame the work women do in the home as work that contributes to society on par with what men do outside the home. I personally don't see how this is so revolutionary, especially for a book published in 2005, since I grew up with this idea. I have no problem with this definition of "work." But I take issue with an idea Smith espoused and my professor backed up which is that this women's work was "unpaid." Excuse me? These women aren't paying rent, for food, for any expenses really, they are given transportation, health care, and often extra money to buy things they like. Much like college athletes these women are paid for their work. If they don't like it they can go get traditional jobs outside the home. They can run their marriages like financial partnerships.

Now I know this is a complicated socio-political issue. But I can't accept that if we are going to redefine "work" (and we should), that we resist also redefining "paid," which should also be redefined. "Payment" is anything you receive in exchange for your work. This idea did not go over well in class and led one of my fellow students then compare being a housewife to slavery. After all, slaves also got free room and board and health care. I mean, aside from the fact that the slaves were forced to be there under penalty of death isn't that big a distinguishing factor right?

Wrong. And that's the point. Nothing compares to slavery except for more slavery. Any time you have choice to do or do not (there is no try) you are not a slave. You don't have to take the scholarship. You don't have to play in the NFL. You don't have to get married and stay home. You have a choice. And don't tell me that they don't really have a choice because not taking the scholarship or whatever means they have nothing. Just because it's a hard choice or a choice with one really beneficial side and one bleak side doesn't mean you don't have a choice. Hard choices are what define life. If you take the scholarship, or the money, or the house in the 'burbs you have to accept what you are choosing. If you decide later that you don't want it you can leave, because you're not a slave.

Moving on. Peterson also states that the NFL is making a lot of money off of the players. This same sentiment is often expressed by people who think college athletes should be paid cash on top of their sweet sweet scholarships. But here's the thing dummies, you make money off them too. Guess what AP, there isn't anyone else in the world with the means or the desire to pay you $10.4M to run around with a ball. You can check. Go to the UFL or CFL and see what kind of gig they have to offer. Or, go get a real job and see how that pans out. Yes, the owners make money because people want to see you play. But the owners are also the only ones who have the infrastructure to make you rich and famous. Without them you're me. Guess what, players come and go. The game and the brand persist. So yes, we watch you, but really we watch the NFL. We watched before you came, and we'll watch when you're gone. You are easily replaceable, the league is not. The same goes for NCAA athletes. Guess what Ed? Your time at UCLA is the only reason people know who you are. You were not a good NBA player. You peaked in college. Instead of suing because the NCAA helps keep your memory alive maybe you should be happy anyone cares who you are. Because the truth is, if you're so upset I'm sure the NCAA would be happy to use Grant Hill next time.

One more note on being paid and what jobs are worth. I am sick to death of hearing people compare athletes to farmers and teachers. It usually goes something like this, "It's disgusting that these pro athletes make all this money and teachers are getting laid off." Or, "I don't watch pro sports because my dad's a farmer and he's struggling while feeding America. Doesn't he deserve to be rich?" Well no, if he were rich he'd stop being a fucking farmer. Seriously, this shit is so ignorant it's silly. Do you know why teachers and farmers don't make Adrian Peterson money? It's because you can't get 50,000 people to regularly pay $100 for tickets, $20 for parking, guzzling $10 beers to come watch your dad fucking farm. It's not interesting. Teachers don't get paid big bucks because as much as I love and respect teachers, most of them suck. Seriously, it's one of the few jobs where it seems like they'll just let anyone do. I was hired to teach linguistics even though I told them at the interview that they should find someone else. That's why teachers get paid shit. Because the system is set up to let shit people become teachers. I'm not saying all teachers are bad people. Or that they're not great valuable members of society. But let's be honest, you've had more bad ones than good ones in your life. As for farmers, some of them get paid to not farm so that the ones that do farm can get a decent price for their goods. If your dad wants to be rich he can sell his veggies or milk or whatever for $100 each. Maybe all the farmers can do that, then all the farmers will be rich and the rest of us will be malnourished or dead. Wouldn't that be nice?

Pro athletes aren't paid based on their worth to society. They're paid because WE pay them. We watch the TV commercials that convince advertisers to pay networks that pay the leagues huge sums of cash. We buy the tickets and the jerseys and the video games. We do it. It's us. Don't blame athletes, blame yourself or your friends, or your family. We do this. We don't pay teachers and farmers big bucks because we don't buy teaching bubble gum cards. We don't want corporate sponsorship of education. But the fact is that teaching and farming are such shit jobs that if you got a million dollars for doing it you'd fucking quit. There's no way you'd deal with these little asshole students and demanding asshole parents and fucking asshole administrators if you had a million dollars. Let's face it, a lot of teachers teach because they love teaching. A lot would keep doing it if they already had money. But so many more do it because they thought they'd love it and now they feel stuck.

So what's the answer? I don't have an answer. Maybe it's corporate sponsored education. Maybe it's halting pro sports until all the whiny babies can share their billions of dollars. I think a long work stoppage would be a good thing in the long run. Most pro baseball players have roughly a high school diploma. Let's see how they do out in the real job market. Baseball tried a players league 100 years ago or so. It failed. Now that players are millionaires maybe they should try it again. No owners. Unhappy players can start a football collective and put their money where their mouths are. They can set up infrastructure, TV deals, political allies, get venues, advertisers, clothing deals and all that. I think that would be good. In the meantime teachers can try to get shoe deals and have their faces put on water bottles and such. That would be nice.

Random Ranting

Hello Rant Fans,

I haven't had a ton of time lately and it's killing me to be away from you for so long.  This PhD thing is an ass kicker and I haven't had time to devote to coming up with the kind of thoughtful analysis of the day's important issues that we all expect from Sir Rantalot.  Then I realized my original idea of ranting without any supporting evidence or citations (or grammar, or spell checking) and I felt liberated.  So, here's a few things I've been wanting to say.

-Remember this post about Mike Vick coming back to the NFL?  If not you can read it now.  The point is I had this to say to the guy who was all mad that Vick was suspended coming off his incarceration while Ben Roethlisberger wasn't suspended after his first rape allegation.  Here's what SR had to say to that:

"Vick has shown a pattern and Ben has not. If Ben gets in trouble again they will look back to his current situation and say "There's a pattern." Ben had better watch his step in the future."

Hey look!  Sir Rantalot was right again.  Ben has shown a pattern and a six game suspension (recently reduced to four games) despite there being no conviction. He was punished for being a jackass. Race has nothing to do with it, commissioner Goodell does not play.

-Speaking of Mike Vick, can we get off the QB controversy in Philly?  In the last two years both Vick and Kevin Kolb have each had two good games.  Is that enough to toss Kolb aside and anoint Vick?  Does anyone remember that Vick has only once had a passer rating over 80?  He's exciting, but is he a good QB over the long haul?  Still, as I said last year, I'd love to see him in SF.

-People were all on the Jets' offense after their week one loss to Baltimore.  Didn't anyone notice how terrible the Jets defense was in that game?  They kept coming with the all out blitz and getting burned deep.  Don't blame Sanchez, blame Rex Ryan.  His D was terrible.

-Dear misogynists, stop dwelling on what Inez Sainz was wearing.  But really, enough of whether female reporter should be in the locker room or not.  Does anyone need to be in the locker room?  Why not let these guys shower and get dressed and then come out and be interviewed?  And no it's not a double standard that male reporters aren't allowed into female sports locker rooms.  If you need an explanation as to why then you're not paying attention to American society.

-Wow, Darrelle Revis is injured and Brett Favre says he needs "time to gel" with his teammates.  I guess maybe going to training camp IS important.  After all, isn't that when you're supposed to "gel" with your teammates and "get in shape so you don't pull a hammy?"  Maybe the long holdout/retirement waffle isn't in anyone's best interest.

-With that said, who wants to trade for Vincent Jackson?  Anyone?  Bueller?

-I hate Derek Jeter but his "Ouch I got hit with the ball" performance was hilarious.  If you ain't Jeteing you ain't trying.

That's all for today kids.  Dunno what I'm talking about? GGI.

Toodles.

And Take Al Davis With You.

So A guy named Ed Roski is planning to build a football stadium in LA. He's planning this even though he does not own an NFL team. He's planning this even though his prospects of owning an NFL team are slim. Good for him. Now let's hope he can get the Raiders to move back to LA.

That's right boys and girls Sir Rantalot's prayers may be answered. There is now a chance, however slim, that our fine community may be rid of the Raiders once and for all. And good riddance. After all who can tell me that the Raiders return has been anything but a nightmare? Massive debt to the county, an ugly ugly remodeling job to the stadium, black outs, PSLs, high ticket prices, six straight seasons of 11 losses or more, black outs, Darrell Russell, this abomination that I still have sort of blocked out of my memory, black outs, and the list goes on. And we still haven't mentioned drunk violent Raider fans.

The Raiders second stint in Oakland had been a disaster for everyone involved. Al has been looking for a way out since he signed the lease. If he bolts back to LA the rest of us can get back to real double headers on Sundays and not being afraid of getting stabbed for wearing colors other than black. I know Al is unlikely to sell and Roski wants a majority stake in a team before he breaks ground but this may be the time. Al's health is failing and I'm sure he could work out a gradual transfer of power that would be completed upon his death. After all it can't be long before Darth Raider throws old Emperor Alpatine down the shaft right? Best of all if Al leaves then maybe, just maybe, we can get a 35,000 seat baseball only stadium that will keep the A's in town and prevent Al from ever coming back.

So here's to all the decent people of the east bay getting together to find out what we can do to make this thing happen. Sometime dreams really can come true.

PS: I've got things to say about Rush, Crabtree, and the other recent sports happenings but I'm still on vacation so it'll have to wait for another day. G'night y'all.

Checking in on Crabtree

Crabtree II

The question I haven’t seen answered in all the Michael Crabtree analysis is this, how much more money will he have to get to make this hold out worth it? If you examine it in terms of simple math rather than leagalese contract math (discounting various bonus triggers that change what is paid when) it goes like this: the contract on the table is reported as $20M/5years. That breaks down to an average of $4M/year. For some antiquated reason NFL players are given game checks 16 times over the course of the season. Each of Crabtree’s game checks should be ~$250,000. Right now the 49ers are pro-rating their offer so that every time Crabtree misses a game the offer is reduced by ~$250,000. So far he has “lost” ~$750 ,000. If you’re not yet sick to your stomach about a guy turning up his nose at that kind of money read on.

Crabtree has threatened to hold out the entire year and re-renter the draft next year. This plan seems to be based on the fact that he thinks he will be picked higher than he was this year and thus get more money. It is also possible that he believes that the amount of money available next year will get him a better deal. Again, how much more money will he need to get to make it worthwhile? Well for one he’d have to make up for sitting out this year. Essentially he’d have to make six years worth of salary in five years giving us a break even point of $24M ($4M/year x 6 years). But that’s not all.

According to the current collective bargaining agreement (CBA) players can become free agents after five years of service time. That’s when big time players really cash in. Forget for a moment that we don’t know if Crabtree is Randy Moss or Carlos Rogers, he believes he’s a big time player which means whatever deal he gets will have to make up for the fact that he’s now delaying free agency and his big payday by another year. If you look at just the average of the top five cap numbers for wide receivers in 2008 ($9.74M) it means Crabtree would have a new break even number of $34M. If you consider the fact that salaries rise over time it's not crazy to think that number will be higher five years from next year so lets say, accounting for 6 years of salary inflation, he needs $40M to break even. Still this number is only what he would need to make up for missing this year. This is the “the plan didn’t really work and it’s kind of a wash” number. For this hold out to be considered a success he’d have to make a lot more than this.

Now, ready for what he’s allegedly asking? $40 million. That’s right, the guy picked tenth wants $40M. That’s about $2M more than the guy picked seventh, who plays the same position, got. But remember, Crabtree’s whole rationale for this hold out is that he should have been picked fifth.

Beyond the money though is another issue. How good can Crabtree be expected to be? The final answer is we have no way of knowing, but that answer’s no fun to analyze. Instead lets look at other players who have missed entire years. The two that spring to mind for me are Maurice Clarett and Mike Williams. If you don’t remember Mo C. he was a running back at Ohio State who had a great freshman year. He was so good that year he decided he should challenge the NFL rule that forces players to wait three years after high school to apply for the draft. When Clarett won a temporary injunction against the NFL Williams decided it would be a good idea to declare for the draft as well. In the end the NFL rule was upheld (thank you judge Sotamayor) and both players missed the entire 2004 season. In 2005 Williams was taken 10th overall and Clarett was taken 101st. Clarett, who turned down $413,000 in guaranteed money in favor of an incentive laden deal with no guarantees, didn’t make it through training camp and never played in the NFL. Williams ended his rookie year with 29 receptions and 1 touchdown. Not exactly what one looks for in the number 10 overall pick. The next year Williams had just 8 catches and 1 touchdown. In 2007 Williams split time between the Raiders and the Titans recording 7 receptions and 0 touchdowns. He has not played a down since then.

What does this mean for Michael Crabtree? Possibly nothing. Andre Smith, this year’s number six pick was the last player left holding out other than Crabtree. Smith finally reported to camp and was immediately lost for the year with a broken foot the next day. Smith was following the path laid out by 2002 number 6 overall pick Ryan Sims who held out for weeks and then was injured and lost for the year a couple weeks after reporting.

Beyond that sports landscape is littered with guys who thought they could do better. Matt Harrington was drafted by MLB teams four years in a row. He was initially a first rounder but found the offer of a paltry $4.9M to be too little. He played junior college ball, then independent ball and got a little worse every year. Now he works installing tires at Costco. The history of players who turn up their noses at not enough millions and skip a year is littered with stories of failure. In fact the only person I can think of who’s at least made a ton of money after sitting out is J.D. Drew and he at least played a year of high level indie ball while he was off denying the Phillies. But there is no high minor league for football. Crabtree gave up his eligibility for the closest thing to that when he left college. Besides that Crabtree has more to lose in terms of his rookie deal by playing this season in Canada or the UFL than by sitting out. The risk of injury is too great and of he doesn’t excel his stock will drop. Instead he’ll hope that his college resume will hold up through next April. That hope is all he’ll have since he won’t be allowed to work out for other teams before the draft. Here’s hoping the Niners will be in position to draft him again. And again, and again, and again.

Sit Down, Read Rule Book, Shut Up

Pic from ESPN.com

You see what you've brought me to Raider fans? You see what's happening here? No? I'll tell you what's happening here, I'm blogging from my phone that's what's happening here. I swore I didn't want to do this but you've driven me beyond my limits. Read below for the short version.

Get this straight you freaks, you did not get robbed last night. Not even a little bit. Of course, being Raider fans I don't really expect you to this into that black hole in your head. You know, the place where common sense and actual football acumen go to die. But try to pay attention here: it was not a catch. Under no circumstances in no one's interpretation of the rules is that ever going to be a catch.

Since I know you don't actually know the rules here they are:

"A player is in possession when he is in firm grip and control of the ball in bounds. To gain possession of a loose ball that has been caught, intercepted or recovered, a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet completely on the ground in bounds or any other part of his body, other than his hands, on the ground in bounds.

"If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other part of his body to the ground or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, there is no possession. This rule applies to the field of play and in the end zone."

"A player who goes to the ground in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball (with or without contact by a defender) must maintain control of the ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone.

"If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, there is no possession. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, it is a catch, interception or recovery."

The guy lost control of the ball. It hit the turf. He didn't Bert Emanuel the ball and get it mostly off the ground. He fully lost the ball and it completely hit the ground. If you go to 1:41 of this recap video you'll see the ball clearly hit the ground before his elbow. After that he never regains possession. Then go to 3:15 of that vid, if the first one was a TD the pass to Higgins should have been a fumble. Higgins also took 2 steps. If that had been a fumble then there would be no TD after that and the same result in terms of the final score.

Plax

"Yeah Hi, I'd like to hire that guy from "The Bodyguard." No not Kevin Costner, the guy, the bodyguard guy. Never mind."

So Plaxico Burress is going to prison. ESPN is reporting that Burress agreed to a plea that will send him away for two years. For those who have not been following the story Burress was arrested last season after accidentally shooting himself in the leg in a New York night club when a gun stuck in the waistband of his sweatpants slipped out and fired.

According to the ESPN.com article Burress's lawyer thinks his client was unfairly targeted because of his celebrity status. There are some aspects of the case that back that up. For example no one else involved in the incident was indicted even though there is evidence to suggest a fairly wide ranging attempt to cover up what happened. Plax's gun was not registered in New York or New Jersey. The security guard at the club did not confiscate the weapon at the scene to turn over to police. Instead he gave it to Giants linebacker Antonio Pierce (removing evidence) who then drove then gun to his own home (transporting an unlicensed weapon across state lines) then to Burress's home (and again). The staff at the hospital did not report the shooting to police which they are compelled to do in many states. Still, even though multiple people were involved in actions that point towards an attempt to shield Burress from prosecution only Burress is being held accountable.

That said, the lawyer's comments in regard to the severity of Burress's punishment are boarder line hysterical. here's a sampling from the ESPN.com article:

"This was not an intentional criminal act," Brafman said. "In my judgment, a two-year prison sentence is a very severe punishment."

"Brafman called the case "a perfect example about how bad judgment can have very serious consequences," and said Burress was treated more harshly because he is a celebrity."

"If Plaxico Burress were not a high-profile individual, there never would be a case," he said. "If he were just John Q Public he could have walked out of the club and he never would have been arrested."

Seriously? Lets discuss this further.

"This was not an intentional criminal act?" Really? So tucking an unlicensed handgun into the waistband of his sweatpants and going out to a night club was...an accident? "Oops, am I still carrying a concealed weapon without a permit? Silly me."

"If he were just John Q Public he could have walked out of the club and he never would have been arrested." Really? So if I carry a gun into a public venue, shoot myself and have the bullet nearly hit the security guard standing nearby I'll just get off without any kind of consequences? Cool. I'm thinking that what will really happen if J.Q. Public does this same thing is that the guard, realizing he's OK and that I almost Pacman Jonesed him will proceed to beat me within an inch of my life, then he'll call the cops, then I'll sit in jail until my trial because I can't come up with the bail, then I'll go to jail for whatever the maximum sentence is. I'm thinking people, even "normal" people, don't just get away with this kind of "unintentional criminal act."

So, what do we learn from this? I really don't know. I hope people learn that they should not carry guns around. Especially in the waistband of their sweatpants. I can't even keep my phone in an elastic waistband how did this guy think a gun was going to stay? Also, rich people, use your money to hire people to do things for you. If you're worried about security hire a body guard who is authorized to carry a weapon. If you like to drink call a cab, or a limo, or tour bus but don't get in your car and start driving around killing people. It looks like the Leonard Little days are over. If you are too stupid to remember these simple things hire someone to remember them for you. But for gawdsake stop doing this stupid shit.

Cribbs Notes

Image created by dawgpounddaily.com, hosted on photobucket

So Joshua Cribbs wants a new deal with four years left on his current contract. He says he wants Devin Hester money. Some people agree with him. Some people are Sir Rantalot. And then there's bam28226. As we saw in the Mike Vick debate post the people who get the most passionate about these arguments also have the least to say. So what's the point of these posts? To show how clever Sir Rantalot is? Not really. It's more to show that even when you show people the rationale behind the debate they still refuse to see anything other than what they want to see. It doesn't matter if it's health care or football ignorance rules the roost.

Again, do not debate if you don't have anything of substance to say.

Bertissimo 10:23am

Wah! Wah! Wah! What a baby.

You signed a six year deal, honor it. The only way the team isn't honoring the deal like Cribbs claims is if they don't pay him. If you want to renegotiate this soon you should have signed a two year deal. You sir are no D. Hester.

Oh, and if you can't live off 6 mil for the rest of your life you're doing something wrong. Cribbs makes in one year what I make in 10. My family is doing fine. Learn to budget dummy.

--Oh but he's a triple threat. He's a return man, a WR, a QB, a RB and he sells hot dogs during half time.--

Bertissimo 10:35am

Career

REC YDS AVG LNG TD
16 / 153 / 9.6 / 18 / 1

CAR YDS AVG LNG TD
40 / 239 / 6.0 / 27 / 1

This guy has 16 career receptions and 40 carries. He's not exactly Slash Stewart. He's not even Troy Brown. He's not underpaid, he's getting what he's worth.

--Now it gets fun--

bam68226 10:36am

bertissimo You are a idiot to think hester is better then cribbs. hester avg 20 yrds a return in his career cribbs 28, and as i recall hester lost his return job bc he wasnt preforming for the last 8 games. you dont know nothing.

--A guy who used the word "preforming" just called me an idiot. He also deleted a post where he said I was aliar and there's no way I make $1M/year.--

Bertissimo 10:48am

Bam,

You moron, Hester also has 71 career receptions including 51 last year. He's WAY more valuable than Cribbs. Oh, and if needed he's a better defender than Cribbs. At least you cleaned up your bad math though so kudos on that. Dummy.

bam68226 10:52am

bert you are dumb really cribbs playd QB, RB, WR, defense of special teams, and returner. he buy far is way more versitile then hester. and comin from a hurricane fan hester is whack so hope of his D. you dummy. its hard to carry a team on your back like he did never getting time to catch his breath, but i always say hester on his bench cept when recievin

--"but i always say hester on his bench cept when recievin" Huh?--

bam68226 10:57am

oh and bert yea i think it was daniel manning who took over kick returns at the end of the bears season, #### im a browns fan and i know more bout any team then you do

Bertissimo 11:03am

Bam,

Who cares about Daniel Manning? Considering your spelling and grammar you should chill with insulting people's intelligence. You really are the worst kind of ignorant.

--I usually try to stay off of mentioning people's spelling and grammar in chats because it online but this guy called me stupid one too many times.--

bam68226 11:05am

your right who cares bout him but guess what he was doing his job over hesters thats why hester lost it and right now idc bout my spelling and grammer it isnt school, im heated right now bc your an ignorant piece of S***

Bertissimo 11:06am

The hold out strategy worked in the past but I think teams are over it by this point. It seems that in the past players held out if they had a year left on their deal and they wanted to stay where they were. But this new trend of players wanting to renegotiate with two or more years left on their contracts is terrible. If you want to renegotiate that soon sign shorter deals.

bam68226 11:07am

just bc you cant be famous and make good money like these people and work as hard as hard as they do. its not just the 16 games for his 6 million hes making. its all year round the effort they put outside the field and having talkd to cribbs seen cribbs he is one of the hardest working players you will ever see, bert

--He just kind of threw me in there at the end. Why?--

bertissimo 11:09am

Bam,

You're comparing a returner to a position player you yutz. Who cares if Hester lost his return job? He's a real full time player now, not a gimmick. You're whole argument is based on Hester's primary value being a returner. It's like comparing you to someone with a clue, it's two totally different things.

rgs_13 11:10am

return guys and average WRs are a dime a dozen

Bertissimo 11:10am

"return guys and average WRs are a dime a dozen "

Exactly.

bam68226 11:10am

oh bert your real funny cribbs doesnt have aset spot when he plays the whole damn game, have you watched football before, i mean come on he is every where on the field

bearsclone 11:12am

"If you want to renegotiate that soon sign shorter deals."

The problem is that as a drafted rookie, your rights are controlled by one team, and they can largely dictate terms. If you are a top pick, you have the leverage, because no team wants the PR nightmare of being bad AND having their top pick not sign-- it makes the fans angry and gives them no hope for the future.

If you are outside of that top 15, you have a greatly diminished amount of leverage. A team says "sign this six year deal" and you either sign it or sit out a year and come back a year older, not playing any football for a year, and suddenly you're a 4th round pick or go undrafted.

If you sign a veteran deal (that is, you get a nice fat contract extension with a signing bonus, that you didn't NEED to sign) then I agree. I hate the fact that some one will sign a huge deal that makes them the most highly paid person at their position ever, and then in year four or five of that eight year deal, they want a new one.

Bertissimo 11:14am

"The problem is that as a drafted rookie, your rights are controlled by one team"

He's not on his rookie deal. He signed an extension in 2007 before his 3rd year.

bearsclone 11:16am

"He's not on his rookie deal. He signed an extension in 2007 before his 3rd year."

If that's the case then I can see where people would have a problem with it.

--Thanks bearsclone. Now that's a friendly debate.--

bam68226

bert, he is a KR,PR,QB,RB,WR, special teams defense, and this year soon to be a CB. please tell me hester does all that for his 40 mil contract and 15 mil guranteed. thats right cribbs does it all for 6 mil point in case deserves a raise

--OK, bam's coming around. He said something half way cogent and didn't call me an idiot. Cool. At this point I get behind in a couple responses because I had to go and do some actual work at work. I thin kyou can still foloow the thread though.--

Bertissimo 11:19am

Bam,

Since I don't live in Ohidaho I don't get to see many Browns games. We have our own cruddy teams to watch here. So I'm very familiar with the players that play really well on losing teams around here. I just don't have the time to follow every terrible team in the league to see who's doing just enough to not really matter. It's great that you love Cribbs so much. Good for you.

bam68226 11:21am

Bert i live 3.5 hrs away from cleveland and i went to 7 out of 8 games one missd bc i had a college baseball game, and i bet your team you like is garb. im not sayn the browns are the best in the league we have problems and it was signing mangini as are coach

bam68226 11:22am

by the way its ohio, and i bet i went to more games last year then you did your entire life

OhioDevil 11:23am

Bam are you serious? Do you even watch the Browns play? Cribbs is on the field for maybe 10-15 plays a game, he does not play QB or RB. Every time he lines up back there he ran the ball for 2yds up the middle. The guy is a great cover guy on special teams and a great return guy, but teams kicked away from him last season negating his effectiveness. There is no way a Special Teamer can demand a new deal, just because the Bears were stupid and paid Hester does not open the door for Cribbs. If Cribbs wins a spot as a Safety or Corner, then yes...give him a raise.

Bertissimo 11:26

Yeah, he's a great QB. He's 1 for 5 for 8yds and a whopping 39.6 rating. Hes got 8 total TDs in his 4 year career.

Hester has 17 TDs in 3 years.

bam68226 11:29

bc they kickd the ball to hester, they were afraid of cribbs. and damn i wish i could have the fluke year that hester had to he had 1 good year cribbs has been increasing as his years go on

--Yeah. That year the Bears went to the Super Bowl no one was afraid of Hester. Right.--

Bertissimo 11:30am

Bam,

I already said I don't care about how many games I've watched or been to or seen and I've already said the teams in my area are terrible. Who cares how many games you go to each year? You're still a dummy. You probably should know more if you invest so much time into it.

And it's Ohidaho because I said it's Ohidaho.

bam68226 11:32am

haha well your a #### to say its that where you from north dakota where there are more cows then people haha

--????--

bam68226 11:34am

o and by the way i dont invest my time in it your the one coming up with all the stats, mine are from my head i dont have the time i have a life, sorry i cant sit on a comp all day and look at stats like you

--This from the guy who's been matching me comment for comment all morning. I'll never understand the people who feel like it's a conversational advantage to just spout whatever it is they half remember based on their hazy impressions of events rather than taking ten seconds to look it up. People, research and verification are good things!--

Bertissimo 11:35am

"haha well your a #### to say its that where you from north dakota"

Dude, I work with languages for a living but I have to say I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I get that you think I'm from ND but that's about it. Are you drunk?

bam68226 11:40

congradulations BERT you work with languages you want a present. i dont give a you know what where you work, your the one that seems to know everything but you still cant give a valid reason, why he doesnt deserve his money

this is to an earlier statement you had o and by the way i dont invest my time in it your the one coming up with all the stats, mine are from my head i dont have the time i have a life, sorry i cant sit on a comp all day and look at stats like you

--But he had time to repeat that comment about not knowing anything.--

Bertissimo 11:44am

Bam,

Looking up stats takes two minutes, far less time than driving from Saskatoon to Cleveland to spend 5 hours at the game then driving home. But you have a life right? And you do have time to spend all day on the computer, you've been chatting it up with me for over an hour. But hey, we know math isn't your strong suit. Neither is English. You're kind of the Josh Cribbs of this discussion, you're all over the place but you don't really contribute to any wins.

thirdfloor81 11:44am

2 receptions for 18 yards and 1 touchdown in 2008... BOO HOO CRIBBS!

bam68226 11:45am

thirdfloor81 hey funny how donte stallworth, kellen winslow, braylon edwards, syndric steptoe, steve heiden are all in front of him of course he isnt goin to get many receptions

--Wait, haven't you been basing your argument on how great a receiver he is? If he's so great why are there five guys ahead of him on the depth chart?--

bam68226 11:48am

bert i havent been on a comp in a week prolly and since your so ignorant how couldnt i stay on and chat with you. bc you think your the man but your cases have all been whack just like you

--Heh. I'm compelling.--

oronatx 11:49am

Bertissmo,

Thats great. You summed this dude up best

"You're kind of the Josh Cribbs of this discussion, you're all over the place but you don't really contribute to any wins"

lmao

--Heh. I have fan.--

Bertissimo 11:51am

Bam, you make no sense pal. What you did last week doesn't matter. It's now that counts. And yes. I am the man.

bam68226 11:53am

bert you are a tool, not the man your the person at work that gets annoying and people tell to shut up bc thats all you been is a pest, that has no knowledge of sports

--Now it's just getting silly. But I'm OK with that.--

Bertissimo 11:57am

Bam, I clearly know way more than you and with less effort. I rule. People at work love me because I'm fun and I'm good at what I do. Man=Me.

bam68226 11:57am

bert normally the people that say that dont have friends, your a no one and its said to see that, but i hope your right in that you do have friends but the way you have been doesnt show any promise just like hesters career no promise hes LAZY

Bertissimo 11:59

Bam, I didn't bring it up. You did.

--Then there was some name calling and a discussion of the 49ers. I went to work for a couple hours and returned to this:--

Irishogs 1:51pm

GIVE THE MAN HIS MONEY!!!! He is our most dependable offensive player. He always plays hard and has done everything asked of him from being a kick returner, to a wide receiver, to running the wildcat, and apparently now playing cornerback. I'm starting to think Mangini is on a mission to destroy the Browns. Consistently, Cribbs makes the plays and catches that Braylon usually drops.

Mr. Lerner - GIVE THE MAN HIS MONEY!!!

Bertissimo 1:59pm

"He is our most dependable offensive player."

He scored 3 TDs last year. He doesn't consistently make catches Edwards can't, he only had 2 catches last season and only 16 in 4 years. If he's the best on the team the team is in big trouble.

Irishogs 2:03pm

Bertissimo:

I'm saying he shows up every game, and he plays every down. Maybe he only had 3 TDs last year, but he wasn't the main guy either. Compare him to the main guys (Winslow, Edwards, Stallworth) and talk to me about efficiency. I put Stallworth in that group because he was supposed to be important to our offense. Although, he was ridiculously underused which isn't entirely his fault.

I'm not saying he is our most talented receiver. I'm saying that he is our most consistent and dependable player, and if he outplays and outperforms the main guys (despite fewer attempts) he should be paid at their level.

--Well said. Next is a response to a few Cribbs apologists.--

Bertissimo 2:36pm

"if he outplays and outperforms the main guys (despite fewer attempts) he should be paid at their level"

--Maybe. But he hasn't done it yet.

"HE PLAYS MORE THAN 1 POSITION"

--And he doesn't play any of them other than KR/PR at an elite level. His best skill position seems to be RB. If he was an elite RB he'd be starting there.

"This isn't him crying over his contract after the 1st or 2nd year"

--Yes it is. This is now the third year of this deal.

"he's a better WR (as of right now)" (than Hester)

--No he's not. He had 2 catches last year Hester had 51.

If you want to look at versatility and playing multiple positions compare Cribbs as a QB and Ronnie Brown (the man who put the wildcat on the map last year).

Cribbs for his career is 1 for 5 for 8 yds and 0 TD. Brown is 2 for 4 for 41 yds and 1 TD. But Brown also rushed for 916 yds and had 16 receptions and 10 total TDs last year. Cribbs had 2 catches 167 yds rushing and 3 total TDs.

Cribbs is not the offensive dynamo some people think he is.

How about Cribbs compared to LT?

Remember Cribbs: 1 for 5, 8 yds, 0 TD.

LT: 8 for 11, 143 yds, 7 TDs

Plus LT contributes way more to the offense. Cribbs has made himself slightly more valuable than as just a good return man. That's how you keep your job, but not enough to make demands with 4 years left on your deal.

FEEZJAMES 2:45pm

BERTISSIMO look, when he gets the opportunities he's not gonna disappoint, I don't agree with the Hester comment either, but understand he was a situational player last year whereas Hester was already put into the system. but since you took one of my quotes (not mad at ya 4 that) you seem to leave the most important one out. WHO LED THE BROWNS IN ALL-PURPOSE YARDS LAST YEAR. and last time i checked All-purpose yards DOES determine who your top 2 (if not 3) best yard producers are, therefore MAKING THEM 1 OF YOUR BEST PLAYERS. Like it or not people, he deserves it and find a better reason other than comparing his bankroll to yours why he doesn't deserve it. Then It'll be a REAL debate here.

FEEZJAMES 2:48pm

ok BERTISSIMO you're sounding real asinine with that one. comparing Cribbs to LT is comparing Elway to Plummer or Cutler, U CAN'T COMPARE APPLES AND ORANGES DUDE, come more sensible than that

Bertissimo 3:03pm

"WHO LED THE BROWNS IN ALL-PURPOSE YARDS LAST YEAR. and last time i checked All-purpose yards DOES determine who your top 2 (if not 3) best yard producers are, therefore MAKING THEM 1 OF YOUR BEST PLAYERS."

I disagree. First off Cribbs wasn't even in the top ten in all purpose yards in the NFL last year. Some of the guys who beat him out were Steve Breaston, Eddie Royal, Johnnie Lee-Higgins and Josh Wilson. These guys are not among the best players on their teams. These are not the guys who make their teams "go." Should Breaston ask for a new deal to put him on par with Larry Fitzgerald? Breaston had more yards.

"Cribbs to LT is comparing Elway to Plummer or Cutler, U CAN'T COMPARE APPLES AND ORANGES DUDE,"

Exactly, but it seems his agent and people in this discussion are saying he's as valuable as other guys with big money deals who do more than one thing. He's not. He's a good KR/PR and below average at everything else. He needs to compare himself to other KR/PR not guys who actually start at a skill position.

Oh and he's asking for a raise after ranking 12th n KR and 18th in PR yards. Outside the top ten in his specialty.

FEEZJAMES 3:17pm

well BERTISSIMO i don't know where you've been but everybody in Phoenix (recent visit) said despite what Fitz has done, they wouldn't have gotten there without Steve Breaston who they refer to as their 'X-Factor'. So that's null and void. Eddie Royal will be Denver's #2 receiver, don't know those other guys but I thought my ? was WHO LED THE BROWNS in all-purpose yards, NOT THE NFL. which validates point #3 (Breaston and Royal the other 2) anything else?

Bertissimo 3:22pm

FEEZ,

My point is that all purpose yards is a misleading stat. It doesn't always point to your best players. You have a good point about Royal, I forgot about him. Breaston did very well, but he's not an elite player at this point. You can get other guys to do what he does.

Teams also wouldn't make it through the year, through the playoffs, to the Super Bowl without kickers. Kickers often lead their teams in points but very few people think kickers should be given huge contracts. Cribbs is a nice player, but he's not great

Players with more impact and less money than Cribbs who have not issued a press release:

Lance Moore

Vincent Jackson

Johnnie Lee Higgins

Steve Breaston

Brandon Marshall

The bottom line is that guys like Cribbs are like utility baseball players. The guy who starts at six different positions in a season usually doesn't do it because he's such a great player. These guys learn to play several positions because that's how they keep a roster spot. If they were good enough to play one position and stay in the line up they would do it. Cribbs doesn't play WR/RB/QB/DB because he's a great player. He does it because he's not good enough at any of those positions to play any of them full time. In short he's a slash guy because he's not good enough to do anything else. Hopefully he, and myopic Browns fans, will figure that out.