Cribbs Notes

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So Joshua Cribbs wants a new deal with four years left on his current contract. He says he wants Devin Hester money. Some people agree with him. Some people are Sir Rantalot. And then there's bam28226. As we saw in the Mike Vick debate post the people who get the most passionate about these arguments also have the least to say. So what's the point of these posts? To show how clever Sir Rantalot is? Not really. It's more to show that even when you show people the rationale behind the debate they still refuse to see anything other than what they want to see. It doesn't matter if it's health care or football ignorance rules the roost.

Again, do not debate if you don't have anything of substance to say.

Bertissimo 10:23am

Wah! Wah! Wah! What a baby.

You signed a six year deal, honor it. The only way the team isn't honoring the deal like Cribbs claims is if they don't pay him. If you want to renegotiate this soon you should have signed a two year deal. You sir are no D. Hester.

Oh, and if you can't live off 6 mil for the rest of your life you're doing something wrong. Cribbs makes in one year what I make in 10. My family is doing fine. Learn to budget dummy.

--Oh but he's a triple threat. He's a return man, a WR, a QB, a RB and he sells hot dogs during half time.--

Bertissimo 10:35am

Career

REC YDS AVG LNG TD
16 / 153 / 9.6 / 18 / 1

CAR YDS AVG LNG TD
40 / 239 / 6.0 / 27 / 1

This guy has 16 career receptions and 40 carries. He's not exactly Slash Stewart. He's not even Troy Brown. He's not underpaid, he's getting what he's worth.

--Now it gets fun--

bam68226 10:36am

bertissimo You are a idiot to think hester is better then cribbs. hester avg 20 yrds a return in his career cribbs 28, and as i recall hester lost his return job bc he wasnt preforming for the last 8 games. you dont know nothing.

--A guy who used the word "preforming" just called me an idiot. He also deleted a post where he said I was aliar and there's no way I make $1M/year.--

Bertissimo 10:48am

Bam,

You moron, Hester also has 71 career receptions including 51 last year. He's WAY more valuable than Cribbs. Oh, and if needed he's a better defender than Cribbs. At least you cleaned up your bad math though so kudos on that. Dummy.

bam68226 10:52am

bert you are dumb really cribbs playd QB, RB, WR, defense of special teams, and returner. he buy far is way more versitile then hester. and comin from a hurricane fan hester is whack so hope of his D. you dummy. its hard to carry a team on your back like he did never getting time to catch his breath, but i always say hester on his bench cept when recievin

--"but i always say hester on his bench cept when recievin" Huh?--

bam68226 10:57am

oh and bert yea i think it was daniel manning who took over kick returns at the end of the bears season, #### im a browns fan and i know more bout any team then you do

Bertissimo 11:03am

Bam,

Who cares about Daniel Manning? Considering your spelling and grammar you should chill with insulting people's intelligence. You really are the worst kind of ignorant.

--I usually try to stay off of mentioning people's spelling and grammar in chats because it online but this guy called me stupid one too many times.--

bam68226 11:05am

your right who cares bout him but guess what he was doing his job over hesters thats why hester lost it and right now idc bout my spelling and grammer it isnt school, im heated right now bc your an ignorant piece of S***

Bertissimo 11:06am

The hold out strategy worked in the past but I think teams are over it by this point. It seems that in the past players held out if they had a year left on their deal and they wanted to stay where they were. But this new trend of players wanting to renegotiate with two or more years left on their contracts is terrible. If you want to renegotiate that soon sign shorter deals.

bam68226 11:07am

just bc you cant be famous and make good money like these people and work as hard as hard as they do. its not just the 16 games for his 6 million hes making. its all year round the effort they put outside the field and having talkd to cribbs seen cribbs he is one of the hardest working players you will ever see, bert

--He just kind of threw me in there at the end. Why?--

bertissimo 11:09am

Bam,

You're comparing a returner to a position player you yutz. Who cares if Hester lost his return job? He's a real full time player now, not a gimmick. You're whole argument is based on Hester's primary value being a returner. It's like comparing you to someone with a clue, it's two totally different things.

rgs_13 11:10am

return guys and average WRs are a dime a dozen

Bertissimo 11:10am

"return guys and average WRs are a dime a dozen "

Exactly.

bam68226 11:10am

oh bert your real funny cribbs doesnt have aset spot when he plays the whole damn game, have you watched football before, i mean come on he is every where on the field

bearsclone 11:12am

"If you want to renegotiate that soon sign shorter deals."

The problem is that as a drafted rookie, your rights are controlled by one team, and they can largely dictate terms. If you are a top pick, you have the leverage, because no team wants the PR nightmare of being bad AND having their top pick not sign-- it makes the fans angry and gives them no hope for the future.

If you are outside of that top 15, you have a greatly diminished amount of leverage. A team says "sign this six year deal" and you either sign it or sit out a year and come back a year older, not playing any football for a year, and suddenly you're a 4th round pick or go undrafted.

If you sign a veteran deal (that is, you get a nice fat contract extension with a signing bonus, that you didn't NEED to sign) then I agree. I hate the fact that some one will sign a huge deal that makes them the most highly paid person at their position ever, and then in year four or five of that eight year deal, they want a new one.

Bertissimo 11:14am

"The problem is that as a drafted rookie, your rights are controlled by one team"

He's not on his rookie deal. He signed an extension in 2007 before his 3rd year.

bearsclone 11:16am

"He's not on his rookie deal. He signed an extension in 2007 before his 3rd year."

If that's the case then I can see where people would have a problem with it.

--Thanks bearsclone. Now that's a friendly debate.--

bam68226

bert, he is a KR,PR,QB,RB,WR, special teams defense, and this year soon to be a CB. please tell me hester does all that for his 40 mil contract and 15 mil guranteed. thats right cribbs does it all for 6 mil point in case deserves a raise

--OK, bam's coming around. He said something half way cogent and didn't call me an idiot. Cool. At this point I get behind in a couple responses because I had to go and do some actual work at work. I thin kyou can still foloow the thread though.--

Bertissimo 11:19am

Bam,

Since I don't live in Ohidaho I don't get to see many Browns games. We have our own cruddy teams to watch here. So I'm very familiar with the players that play really well on losing teams around here. I just don't have the time to follow every terrible team in the league to see who's doing just enough to not really matter. It's great that you love Cribbs so much. Good for you.

bam68226 11:21am

Bert i live 3.5 hrs away from cleveland and i went to 7 out of 8 games one missd bc i had a college baseball game, and i bet your team you like is garb. im not sayn the browns are the best in the league we have problems and it was signing mangini as are coach

bam68226 11:22am

by the way its ohio, and i bet i went to more games last year then you did your entire life

OhioDevil 11:23am

Bam are you serious? Do you even watch the Browns play? Cribbs is on the field for maybe 10-15 plays a game, he does not play QB or RB. Every time he lines up back there he ran the ball for 2yds up the middle. The guy is a great cover guy on special teams and a great return guy, but teams kicked away from him last season negating his effectiveness. There is no way a Special Teamer can demand a new deal, just because the Bears were stupid and paid Hester does not open the door for Cribbs. If Cribbs wins a spot as a Safety or Corner, then yes...give him a raise.

Bertissimo 11:26

Yeah, he's a great QB. He's 1 for 5 for 8yds and a whopping 39.6 rating. Hes got 8 total TDs in his 4 year career.

Hester has 17 TDs in 3 years.

bam68226 11:29

bc they kickd the ball to hester, they were afraid of cribbs. and damn i wish i could have the fluke year that hester had to he had 1 good year cribbs has been increasing as his years go on

--Yeah. That year the Bears went to the Super Bowl no one was afraid of Hester. Right.--

Bertissimo 11:30am

Bam,

I already said I don't care about how many games I've watched or been to or seen and I've already said the teams in my area are terrible. Who cares how many games you go to each year? You're still a dummy. You probably should know more if you invest so much time into it.

And it's Ohidaho because I said it's Ohidaho.

bam68226 11:32am

haha well your a #### to say its that where you from north dakota where there are more cows then people haha

--????--

bam68226 11:34am

o and by the way i dont invest my time in it your the one coming up with all the stats, mine are from my head i dont have the time i have a life, sorry i cant sit on a comp all day and look at stats like you

--This from the guy who's been matching me comment for comment all morning. I'll never understand the people who feel like it's a conversational advantage to just spout whatever it is they half remember based on their hazy impressions of events rather than taking ten seconds to look it up. People, research and verification are good things!--

Bertissimo 11:35am

"haha well your a #### to say its that where you from north dakota"

Dude, I work with languages for a living but I have to say I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I get that you think I'm from ND but that's about it. Are you drunk?

bam68226 11:40

congradulations BERT you work with languages you want a present. i dont give a you know what where you work, your the one that seems to know everything but you still cant give a valid reason, why he doesnt deserve his money

this is to an earlier statement you had o and by the way i dont invest my time in it your the one coming up with all the stats, mine are from my head i dont have the time i have a life, sorry i cant sit on a comp all day and look at stats like you

--But he had time to repeat that comment about not knowing anything.--

Bertissimo 11:44am

Bam,

Looking up stats takes two minutes, far less time than driving from Saskatoon to Cleveland to spend 5 hours at the game then driving home. But you have a life right? And you do have time to spend all day on the computer, you've been chatting it up with me for over an hour. But hey, we know math isn't your strong suit. Neither is English. You're kind of the Josh Cribbs of this discussion, you're all over the place but you don't really contribute to any wins.

thirdfloor81 11:44am

2 receptions for 18 yards and 1 touchdown in 2008... BOO HOO CRIBBS!

bam68226 11:45am

thirdfloor81 hey funny how donte stallworth, kellen winslow, braylon edwards, syndric steptoe, steve heiden are all in front of him of course he isnt goin to get many receptions

--Wait, haven't you been basing your argument on how great a receiver he is? If he's so great why are there five guys ahead of him on the depth chart?--

bam68226 11:48am

bert i havent been on a comp in a week prolly and since your so ignorant how couldnt i stay on and chat with you. bc you think your the man but your cases have all been whack just like you

--Heh. I'm compelling.--

oronatx 11:49am

Bertissmo,

Thats great. You summed this dude up best

"You're kind of the Josh Cribbs of this discussion, you're all over the place but you don't really contribute to any wins"

lmao

--Heh. I have fan.--

Bertissimo 11:51am

Bam, you make no sense pal. What you did last week doesn't matter. It's now that counts. And yes. I am the man.

bam68226 11:53am

bert you are a tool, not the man your the person at work that gets annoying and people tell to shut up bc thats all you been is a pest, that has no knowledge of sports

--Now it's just getting silly. But I'm OK with that.--

Bertissimo 11:57am

Bam, I clearly know way more than you and with less effort. I rule. People at work love me because I'm fun and I'm good at what I do. Man=Me.

bam68226 11:57am

bert normally the people that say that dont have friends, your a no one and its said to see that, but i hope your right in that you do have friends but the way you have been doesnt show any promise just like hesters career no promise hes LAZY

Bertissimo 11:59

Bam, I didn't bring it up. You did.

--Then there was some name calling and a discussion of the 49ers. I went to work for a couple hours and returned to this:--

Irishogs 1:51pm

GIVE THE MAN HIS MONEY!!!! He is our most dependable offensive player. He always plays hard and has done everything asked of him from being a kick returner, to a wide receiver, to running the wildcat, and apparently now playing cornerback. I'm starting to think Mangini is on a mission to destroy the Browns. Consistently, Cribbs makes the plays and catches that Braylon usually drops.

Mr. Lerner - GIVE THE MAN HIS MONEY!!!

Bertissimo 1:59pm

"He is our most dependable offensive player."

He scored 3 TDs last year. He doesn't consistently make catches Edwards can't, he only had 2 catches last season and only 16 in 4 years. If he's the best on the team the team is in big trouble.

Irishogs 2:03pm

Bertissimo:

I'm saying he shows up every game, and he plays every down. Maybe he only had 3 TDs last year, but he wasn't the main guy either. Compare him to the main guys (Winslow, Edwards, Stallworth) and talk to me about efficiency. I put Stallworth in that group because he was supposed to be important to our offense. Although, he was ridiculously underused which isn't entirely his fault.

I'm not saying he is our most talented receiver. I'm saying that he is our most consistent and dependable player, and if he outplays and outperforms the main guys (despite fewer attempts) he should be paid at their level.

--Well said. Next is a response to a few Cribbs apologists.--

Bertissimo 2:36pm

"if he outplays and outperforms the main guys (despite fewer attempts) he should be paid at their level"

--Maybe. But he hasn't done it yet.

"HE PLAYS MORE THAN 1 POSITION"

--And he doesn't play any of them other than KR/PR at an elite level. His best skill position seems to be RB. If he was an elite RB he'd be starting there.

"This isn't him crying over his contract after the 1st or 2nd year"

--Yes it is. This is now the third year of this deal.

"he's a better WR (as of right now)" (than Hester)

--No he's not. He had 2 catches last year Hester had 51.

If you want to look at versatility and playing multiple positions compare Cribbs as a QB and Ronnie Brown (the man who put the wildcat on the map last year).

Cribbs for his career is 1 for 5 for 8 yds and 0 TD. Brown is 2 for 4 for 41 yds and 1 TD. But Brown also rushed for 916 yds and had 16 receptions and 10 total TDs last year. Cribbs had 2 catches 167 yds rushing and 3 total TDs.

Cribbs is not the offensive dynamo some people think he is.

How about Cribbs compared to LT?

Remember Cribbs: 1 for 5, 8 yds, 0 TD.

LT: 8 for 11, 143 yds, 7 TDs

Plus LT contributes way more to the offense. Cribbs has made himself slightly more valuable than as just a good return man. That's how you keep your job, but not enough to make demands with 4 years left on your deal.

FEEZJAMES 2:45pm

BERTISSIMO look, when he gets the opportunities he's not gonna disappoint, I don't agree with the Hester comment either, but understand he was a situational player last year whereas Hester was already put into the system. but since you took one of my quotes (not mad at ya 4 that) you seem to leave the most important one out. WHO LED THE BROWNS IN ALL-PURPOSE YARDS LAST YEAR. and last time i checked All-purpose yards DOES determine who your top 2 (if not 3) best yard producers are, therefore MAKING THEM 1 OF YOUR BEST PLAYERS. Like it or not people, he deserves it and find a better reason other than comparing his bankroll to yours why he doesn't deserve it. Then It'll be a REAL debate here.

FEEZJAMES 2:48pm

ok BERTISSIMO you're sounding real asinine with that one. comparing Cribbs to LT is comparing Elway to Plummer or Cutler, U CAN'T COMPARE APPLES AND ORANGES DUDE, come more sensible than that

Bertissimo 3:03pm

"WHO LED THE BROWNS IN ALL-PURPOSE YARDS LAST YEAR. and last time i checked All-purpose yards DOES determine who your top 2 (if not 3) best yard producers are, therefore MAKING THEM 1 OF YOUR BEST PLAYERS."

I disagree. First off Cribbs wasn't even in the top ten in all purpose yards in the NFL last year. Some of the guys who beat him out were Steve Breaston, Eddie Royal, Johnnie Lee-Higgins and Josh Wilson. These guys are not among the best players on their teams. These are not the guys who make their teams "go." Should Breaston ask for a new deal to put him on par with Larry Fitzgerald? Breaston had more yards.

"Cribbs to LT is comparing Elway to Plummer or Cutler, U CAN'T COMPARE APPLES AND ORANGES DUDE,"

Exactly, but it seems his agent and people in this discussion are saying he's as valuable as other guys with big money deals who do more than one thing. He's not. He's a good KR/PR and below average at everything else. He needs to compare himself to other KR/PR not guys who actually start at a skill position.

Oh and he's asking for a raise after ranking 12th n KR and 18th in PR yards. Outside the top ten in his specialty.

FEEZJAMES 3:17pm

well BERTISSIMO i don't know where you've been but everybody in Phoenix (recent visit) said despite what Fitz has done, they wouldn't have gotten there without Steve Breaston who they refer to as their 'X-Factor'. So that's null and void. Eddie Royal will be Denver's #2 receiver, don't know those other guys but I thought my ? was WHO LED THE BROWNS in all-purpose yards, NOT THE NFL. which validates point #3 (Breaston and Royal the other 2) anything else?

Bertissimo 3:22pm

FEEZ,

My point is that all purpose yards is a misleading stat. It doesn't always point to your best players. You have a good point about Royal, I forgot about him. Breaston did very well, but he's not an elite player at this point. You can get other guys to do what he does.

Teams also wouldn't make it through the year, through the playoffs, to the Super Bowl without kickers. Kickers often lead their teams in points but very few people think kickers should be given huge contracts. Cribbs is a nice player, but he's not great

Players with more impact and less money than Cribbs who have not issued a press release:

Lance Moore

Vincent Jackson

Johnnie Lee Higgins

Steve Breaston

Brandon Marshall

The bottom line is that guys like Cribbs are like utility baseball players. The guy who starts at six different positions in a season usually doesn't do it because he's such a great player. These guys learn to play several positions because that's how they keep a roster spot. If they were good enough to play one position and stay in the line up they would do it. Cribbs doesn't play WR/RB/QB/DB because he's a great player. He does it because he's not good enough at any of those positions to play any of them full time. In short he's a slash guy because he's not good enough to do anything else. Hopefully he, and myopic Browns fans, will figure that out.

Vick (Or Why You Should Never Debate Sir Rantalot Unless You Have Something Real to Say)

The following is an excerpt from a discussion I had regarding Michael Vick. I wasn't planning to do a Vick post but I think this excerpt sums up the two of the three different stances on Vick (the third being that he should be banned for life) rather well. I've truncated the names of the other participants since the goal here isn't to trash any identifiable individuals. This is an edited version, at a certain point two of us (me being one) said some things I don't think we're proud of which were removed by the moderator before I could do the repost.

Roberto Santiago: I'm fine with Goodell's decision regarding Vick. I'd have been fine if Goodel had not handed down any suspension at all. The thing is, Vick wasn't going to be anybody's starter this year anyway so the 6 game suspension really doesn't do anything.

Vick served his time. Now the judgement comes from the owners. If no one wants to deal with the headaches of having him on the team (media attention, fan reaction, QB controversy etc) then he won't get work this year. If I owned a team I might take a chance on him.

As for people calling out Rookie Ben, there was no criminal complaint so there's no investigation. It comes down to finger pointing. She files a law suit a year after it happened after not telling anyone about it? Yeah, sounds like someone's hoping for some hush money.

EA: With regards to Vick, he did his time and it should be done with. Roger Goodell has gotten power-drunk, and full of himself. No one man should have that amount of power in ANY organization. He is the same one whose punishment for a whole team (NE) and a Coach was tantamont to a peck on the wrist, but when it comes to the players he so Mr. Don't-take-mess.

A lot of folks will again like to bypass the fact that there are racial-undertones to these things. Forget about the fact that Roethlisberger's incident was a civil-suit. Imagine that civil-suit was against T.O, Randy Moss, or some other black athlete. Do we honestly thing that the reaction to it woulda been this mellow so far? T.O expressed his view which I think was right, and he is entitled to it. Goodell has basically told a grown man how he should run his life to please HIM before he decides to fully reinstate the man - nonesense. Take a look at the details of this suspension.

Roberto Santiago: TO and Moss have been in trouble with the league (and for Moss the law) many times in the past. Big Ben has not. If TO had Ben's rep then no, I don't think he'd be in trouble for what Ben's involved in.

" Goodell has basically told a grown man how he should ruhis life to please HIM . "

-Not to please HIM, to please the league as a whole, the owners, and the sponsors. If Vick was such a grown man who didn't need any guidance he wouldn't be involved in a multi-year criminal conspiracy. Again, it's not like Vick was going to come back as anyone's starter so the added suspension really is just for show.

Anyone remember this?

"Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player who throws a ball game, no player who undertakes or promises to throw a ball game, no player who sits in confidence with a bunch of crooked ballplayers and gamblers, where the ways and means of throwing a game are discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball."

Now that's a strong arm commissioner.

EA: It is not to please the league. There are owners as well as players that wanted Vick back with the team, so you saying the actions is the please the league is totally baseless. Vick has been suspended without pay since it was ascertained that he was involved. He has been rediculed, lost playing-time and lost millions of dollars. What else type of punishment should he endure? Before this dog-fighting case, please name the other problem that Vick pose - please name it. Since the reason Ben case gets little or no attention is because of first-time offense, please name Vick's first offense other than this. This suspension is not to satisfy any owners of the league. Any owner that needs a QB of Vick's talent will not hesitate a lick to take him. Satisfy the sponsors? What is that? 5 more games will satisfy them? Did any sponsor say that's what they were looking for?

Not to belittle the offense, but he killed a dog, there people in this society still enjoy their presitge eventhough they killed people, some of them (like some of the Presidents of this country) killed thousands of people. Oh please on the strong-arm commision - my foot. He is only strong when it comes to dealing with players. He's nothing but a kiss-up-kick-down punk.


Roberto Santiago: "There are owners as well as players that wanted Vick back with the team, so you saying the actions is the please the league is totally baseless."

The league is not the players. The league is the owners. As for "baseless" Vick remains unsigned at at least 11 teams have publicly said they don't want him. So where are these owners who want him back?

As for his previous offenses:

In early 2004, two men were arrested in Virginia for distributing marijuana. The truck they were driving was registered to Michael Vick.

In March 2005, Sonya Elliott filed a civil lawsuit against Vick alleging she contracted genital herpes from him in the autumn of 2002, and that he failed to inform her that he had the disease.

November 26, 2006 – After a Falcons loss to the New Orleans Saints in the Georgia Dome, in apparent reaction to fans booing, Vick made an obscene gesture at fans, holding up two middle fingers. He was fined $10,000 by the NFL and agreed to donate another $10,000 to charity.

He is only strong when it comes to dealing with players." -That's his job.

EA: No team wanna pick him up and pay him, while knowing he might miss 5 games. Especially, when everything depends ONLY on what the commisioner feels. His job is to be tough with players only? I thought you said he was the commissioner of the League, which in your words mean the owners? When he wants to please the League then the definition covers owners. But if he wants to get tough, the definition covers only players? Are you serious about this? He is the commissioner of the League, which I would thing includes all those under the sphere of the NFL, which includes players, owners, teams, etc.

Now on to your offenses: 1. Someone driving Vick's car, not Vick, and Vick is not in the car, but he is at fault?

2. His private sex-life, mind you his medical history which is covered by HIPAA, was violated and you call that a violation against the League?

Where do you come from with these arguments, dude? And by the way, the difference here which points again to biases, is the fact that this revelation was something sort after by espn journalists.Roethlisberger's incident fell in their lap and they did everything to conceal it. The bias even made CNN.

3. The incident on the field was a League violation, but then we must also include Roethlisberger's violation of the league's personal injury clause when he rode a bike without a helmet. I still see the bias, but I understand that you cannot. My central point surround the punk, Roger Goodell, who is full of himself. Prior to him, such incidents were reviewed by a panel of NFL officials. When he took over, he placed the decision solely in his hands alone. To me that's someone who is drunk with power, and it turnsd out he's bias. Vick did his time and he paid for it more than a 1000 dogs worth. He deserves his chance to redeem himself. Goodell is no God. I am so hoping that his skeletons will come out pretty soon. Trust me it will, he loves attention.

Roberto Santiago: "No team wanna pick him up and pay him, while knowing he might miss 5 games"

-Why not? He's out of shape and wasn't that good a QB to begin with. It's not like he was going to play anyway.

"His job is to be tough with players only? I thought you said he was the commissioner of the League, which in your words mean the owners?"

-You know that he works for the owners right? They hire the commissioner. They hire him to deal with the NFLPA. And what is he supposed to get tough with the owners about? Was Zygi Wilf on a sex cruise? Was Arthur Blank out at the Gold Club making it rain?

"Vick is not in the car, but he is at fault? "

-The league frowns upon it. They always have and that's who he's dealing with.

"His private sex-life, mind you his medical history which is covered by HIPAA, was violated"

-It was not violated. Knowingly giving someone an incurable STD can be a criminal offense. In this case it was a civil complaint and you're misapplying HIPAA. Again it shows a lack of judgment and the league frowns upon it.

Know this, if Ben gets in trouble again they will point back to this civil case and call it a pattern.

FSW: Have to admit Arthur making it rain is somewhat amusing, but Goddell aside, is Vick mentally ready to take on the role of QB right now?

Roberto Santiago: I doubt he's mentally ready and he's certainly not physically ready.

And Vick can't help the Vikings. All he can do is cause more problems for Tavaris Jackson. I've heard mention of him going to the Pats. That could work.

He'd be a threat on third down or in the Wild Cat and an insurance policy on Brady.

The Steelers also have a good history of creative use of athletic backup QBs.

EA: Roberto, I'm seeing the source of your argument and it has no objective basis. So you don't think highly of Vick, cool. It does not mean that it is okay for him to be treated unfairly. All your arguments posits that you do agree that bias is there, and that is what I am saying as well. We differ in the fact that you think that the bias is okay, and I do not think it is okay.

Andy Reid's sons did worst then Vick's friends in that car, and the league did not frown on it as you claim they always frown on things like that. The league in fact supported him. The case with Ben is a civil case as well, and it is criminal if he raped the girl. You are pointing out Mike's incident as if he was convicted, he was not. This is another place in which YOUR bias is apparent. Alas though, you agree with me that he is a kiss-up-kick-down commissioner. He's no tough commissioner.

JFM: I think Godell and the owners are more afraid of bad publicity and what that might do to their bottom line than to do what's right. Vick did his time. He should be able to play with whomever will have him. And if he screws up again.. then kick him the hell out.

Roberto Santiago: "I think Godell and the owners are more afraid of bad publicity and what that might do to their bottom line than to do what's right."

That is what's right. Vick doesn't have a right to play football. If the people who run the game don't want him around then he won't find work. People aren't falling over to sign Marvin Harrison either and he hasn't even been formally charged yet.

If no one wants to hire him to play in the NFL that's their business. Literally, it is their business they run it, they hire and fire. Of course they watch the bottom line, it's not job corps it's a business. No one owes Mike Vick anything.

Roberto Santiago: EA, you're myopic.

If you actually read what I wrote instead of looking for some one to jump you'd see that I said:

-I would have been fine if the commissioner hadn't done anything to Vick

-I would probably sign him if I owned a team.

-He would be good for the Pats or Steelers

Society didn't take anything from Vick. He's a convicted felon. He did this to himself. He chose to be involved in a criminal conspiracy. Society and the NFL don't owe him anything.

Andy Reid's sons are not league employees and Andy Reid was not involved in their crimes. Why punish Reid for his kids? Vick wasn't punished for what his friends did with his car but it shows a pattern.

Big Ben's thing isn't criminal because there's no evidence. She waited a year to file a civil suit. Just like with Vick's accuser in '05. There will be no criminal charge.

"Yo are pointing out Mike's incident as if he was convicted, he was not."

-Do you mean dog fighting? He went to Levenworth. He was convicted.

The fact is felons have a hard time getting back to work in high profile jobs. Mike Vick is being treated just like anyone else.

Oh, as for the "soft" stance towards coaches and owners remember "Spygate?"

"On September 13, for the "use of equipment to videotape an opposing team's offensive or defensive signals,"Belichick was officially fined $500,000 — the largest fine ever imposed on a coach in the league's then-87-year history, and the maximum permitted under league rules. The Patriots were also fined $250,000, and stripped of their first-round selection in the 2008 NFL Draft." -Wikipedia

500K is no joke. A 1st round pick is no joke.

Hey look, more action against coaches:

"On August 31, 2007, Goodell suspended Dallas Cowboys quarterbacks coach Wade Wilson for five games and fined him US$100,000, and suspended New England Patriots safety Rodney Harrison four games without pay, after they admitted the use of banned substances for medical purposes and to accelerate healing, ... Read Morerespectively. The league indicated to Wilson that his more severe penalty was because they held "people in authority in higher regard than people on the field." -Wikipedia

So now that we've put the "soft on owners and coaches" issue to bed I think we can dismiss the "no objective basis" comment.

In fact I may be the only person to post here who has brought actual facts, research, and a working knowledge of both the law and the league to the table. This would make me the sole presenter of objective fact so far today.

EA: Roberto it is good you know about myopia, because that actually applies to you. You argument has been spurious and nothing more. Your facts you brought to the case end up being circular and has no substance whatever to the argument. Remember, you jumped me, not the other way around and I'm okay with that. Oh I actually read what you wrote and found it to still lack an objective basis. Your comment that you would have been fine if Goodell had not handed down anything came on the heels of you stating that you are fine with Goodells FLAWED decision. So that mention is neglible to me and shows nothing about your objectivity. Your other points about Vick going to the Pats or Steelers also shows nothing about your objectivity in our (u & I) discussion because first it is certainly not YOUR insight, and it was in response to Fabunde or another person's comments.

JFM: Roberto, there's nothing objective about Vick's situation. Facts and the law aren't entering into it. It's public perception that's ruling Godell's decision. The NFL doesn't want Peta protesting at every game. I'm a little surprised that the Players Union are being such wusses. You would think they would be filing a grievance on his behalf.

Roberto Santiago: JFM,

You're right facts and law don't enter into it because this is not court. It is based on fear of protest, public perception, etc because it is a consumer driven business. If you want to keep making tons of money don't piss people off. If you look at any convicted felon you'll find that they have a hard time getting work. No one owes Vick job.

Guess what, he's probably not allowed to vote any more either. He can't leave the country. He can't travel out of state without permission from his PO. He can't own a firearm. he can't run for public office. He's a felon. Along with everything that entails.

EA: 1.You find that it is okay to hold Mike Vick accountable for his friends that are not in the NFL. Probably because they used his property. Andy Reid's sons also used his property to commit crimes, not once but twice, even after they were awaiting trial for a previous. We can do without this kind of "objectivity".

2. You agree that Vick's STD case was as similar as Ben's current case, yet you still absurdly hold it against him while looking at Ben's as mere nothing. Well, the girl in Vick's case also never filed a suit till she and Vick were through with the relationship

Roberto Santiago: EA, you're using a lot of big words but you still haven't put together a cohesive point. It is one thing to say my facts are circular, but you have yet to explain how that is or back it up with anything at all. You have yet to actually base any of your comments on anything. I'm all substance, you are a few syntactically odd collections of superfluous vocabulary.

As for who my comments are to, they are to everyone. This isn't a me-you discussion this is an open group discussion.

Finally I didn't jump you. I countered your points with my points.

EA: "Yo are pointing out Mike's incident as if he was convicted, he was not." Regarding this comment, do not try to be smart, cuz so far I haven't found you as that. You know I was refering to Vick's STD case and not the Dog-fighting case. $250,000 and a 1st round draft pick, of which they had two, is a severe punishment for a team? Who the hell is your weedman? He must be good. Cuz only someone with an impaired mind will see that as severe. Oh I forgot it is not weed, you do have myopia. $500,000 thousand for a coach that makes approxy $5mil+ a year is severe? He lost not one week of coaching, and still got to be coach of the year. Are you kidding someone?

Let us be frank bro, there is absolutely no insight and objectivity in the facts you brought up. My responses to you have been quick off the doom, while you have scoured around to pick up news clippings. The funny thing about it is that they are not supporting your points - that is if you are claiming that there is no bias.

Roberto Santiago: EA, you're not really processing my comments.

1. Again, Vick is showing a pattern. Andy Reid had some bad luck with his kids. I just re-read some of the articles about the Reid kids, nothing indicates it was Andy Reid's cars.

2. What I said is Vick has shown a pattern and Ben has not. IF Ben gets in trouble again they will look back to his current situation and say "There's a pattern." Ben had better watch his step in the future.

EA: I have countered the substance of all your clippings without having to scour the web. That you name the dates does not mean there is any substance to your argument, it just meant that you found a clipping from somewhere. Quite often, lemmings like you that have not point, tend to inject ad hominem in these arguments and I usually try to guide your type back to the substance of the argument. In this case, I won't. You give your appraisal of me, well here is my appraisal of you. You are one of two kinds of lemmings. More than likely, you are the kind of lemming that probably grew up impoverished, but with some luck and mediocre work, you find yourself fortunate now. So all of a sudden, the world is level to you - because you got lucky. Or you are the kind of lemming. You grew up priviledge and have had daddy's spoon in your mouth the whole damn time, and lack real-life experiences. Either way, your insights protray lack of objectivity and lack of intellect.

Roberto Santiago: "My responses to you have been quick off the doom"

-Indeed. and that's my point. You bring nothing except what's in your tiny malformed little brain. You haven't backed up anything, you have no understanding of business, sports leagues, or reading for content.

That I bring up facts at all is the only measure of objectivity. You've brought up nothing. You've got nothing. You said Goodell never punished any coaches or owners and I gave you several examples. Now all you can say is they're not good enough? And you're obsessed with Andy Reid because you know my other arguments are rock solid.

The fact is you've presented nothing. It's easy to tear someone down when you've been not only wrong, but ignorant on top of that. Coming "quick off the doom" isn't something to be proud of.

EA: Go back my friend and look at your arguments, you have used the big words that lack any meaning. I stated there were biases in the system and that Goodell's power is unchecked. You have yet to counter my points that there are biases in the system, or that Goodell's power is not unchecked. You go and pick up news clippings that only highlight the same biases that I'm talking about. And no, stop being a liar, you countered every patterned I mentioned regarding Ben. You can't counter all the patterns, and then try to claim that you still accept them. They work for someone that is unable to see the nothingness of your arguments, but not me. Also, while the overall discussion is with everyone, clearly you and I are having a separate discussion. Probably you may need to read clippings again to orient yourself. Also, there are responses from you that were to my points, and responses to the points of others. I focus on your responses that are to my points so I can respond to you.

Roberto Santiago: Let's break it down "off the doom"

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim,"

-I've brought a ton of facts to the table. You've brought nothing but attacks on me and misinterpretations of nearly everything else. (BTW the league doesn't have a "personal injury policy" some acts are forbidden in individual player contracts negotiated with individual teams, not the league)

"rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim."

-Bring some facts son!

Dude, What does this even mean?

"And no, stop being a liar, you countered every patterned I mentioned regarding Ben. You can't counter all the patterns, and then try to claim that you still accept them"

Try again, in English this time.

But you're not focusing on my points, you're focusing on me. You think you're clever hurling insults but all it does is reinforce the fact that you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Here's the thing. You can disagree with Goodell's decision. That's fine. I can not care either way (which was my original point). But the bottom line is that no one owes Vick anything. He does not have a right to play football.

omething Fabunde touched on but no one else has mentioned:

Can Vick actually help a team win right now?

Conventional wisdom seems to say "no." He hasin't played or been in a real conditioning program for 2 years. You don't just roll out of bed and play in the NFL. He's got to gethis timing down, learn a new system that will not be tailored to him like the falcons offense was and get used to being hit again.

Remember, Jamal Lewis went to jail for 2 months and had a bad year coming back.

Also we're talking about a guy who has never had a season in which he completed 60% of his passes, thrown for 3,000 yards and has had only one year with a QB rating above 78. The fact is he wasn't a great passer to begin with and now he's rusty. It's entirely possible that the suspension will help him by not having any pressure to come in and start right away.

After this the conversation petered out. I think the point here is that if you're the type of person who is proud of the fact that your opinion is completely un-researched and based solely on what you have rattling around in your "doom" you probably shouldn't get into too many debates.